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Judge Ronald PaniotoRecuses Himself sua sponte |
PAS MISTRIAL |
The Abuser's Custodial Rights To The Children In This Case Is Now Over 1,400 Days |
cincinnatipas.com
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Judge Ronald PaniotoRecuses Himself sua sponte |
PAS MISTRIAL |
The Abuser's Custodial Rights To The Children In This Case Is Now Over 1,400 Days |
Other Pages On This Site
Declares A Mistrial
February 17, 2004
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Hamilton County Domestic Relations Court
Court transcript excerpts from the three hour proceedings prior to "mistrial". Family names and others redacted, and certain other testimony as well. |
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1 1 COURT OF COMMON PLEAS 2 DIVISION OF DOMESTIC RELATIONS 3 HAMILTON COUNTY, OHIO 4 DR. (redacted), : 5 PLAINTIFF : 6 VS. : Case No. DR(redacted) 7 Teresa (redacted), : Transcript of Proceedings 8 DEFENDANT : 9 APPEARANCES: 10 On Behalf of Plaintiff: 11 12 On Behalf of Defendant: 13 and C. RICHARD MARTIN, ESQUIRE 14 15 - - - 16 BE IT REMEMBERED that the above-entitled cause 17 came on for hearing on the 17h day of February, 2004 before 18 the Honorable Ronald A. Panioto, Judge, in the Court of 19 Common Pleas, Division of Domestic Relations, Hamilton 20 County, Ohio, and was thereafter transcribed by Dianna Robin 21 Grippa, RMR, an Official Court Reporter in and for the County 22 of Hamilton, State of Ohio. 3
1 (February 17th, 2004) 2 MR. DUCOTE: Morning, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: Morning. We're ready. 4 MR. DUCOTE: We're ready, your Honor. They 5 filed the first pleading, I think. 6 MR. MASTRUSERIO: That's not correct, your 7 Honor. 8 THE COURT: My procedure and policy always has 9 been that the person who is adversely affected by the 10 decision of the parenting specialist goes forward, so I look 11 for you to go forward. 12 MR. DUCOTE: Okay. Fine, your Honor. We call 13 Dr. (redacted). 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Your Honor, can I have a 16 point of clarification in regards to one item before we 17 start? 18 THE COURT: Sure. 19 MR. MASTRUSERIO: As you're well aware, the 20 Court had ordered a psychiatric report of Dr. Borack, and 21 counsel in the past two years has on at least two occasions 22 tried to supplement that particular report in the record. In 23 the earlier part, we had objected because he was trying to 24 bring it in under a Rule 60(B) motion, which we didn't feel 25 was the appropriate time. But now it is the appropriate 4
1 time, and I want to know counsel's position, if he was going 2 to ask that the report be included in the record. If what 3 the Court's position is continues, it was a court-appointed 4 physician. I would assume it would be part of the court 5 record. 6 MR. DUCOTE: Absolutely not, your Honor. It's 7 hearsay. It's objectionable in many, many ways. If they 8 want this into the record, they can bring in Dr. Borack, have 9 him testify so he can be properly cross-examined. The 10 position of Mr. Mastruserio and the Court all along has been 11 that Dr. Borack's report has been out of another file, is not 12 part of the record, was never introduced into evidence. 13 The Court denied twice, I believe, our motion to have 14 it supplemented or made part of the record for the purposes 15 of appeal saying that it wasn't in the record. It's still 16 not in the record. It can't just be simply stuck into the 17 record. It has to be properly introduced into evidence, and 18 we would object to any reference, any offering of any report 19 from Dr. Borack. 20 MR. MASTRUSERIO: The reason I broached the 21 subject, your Honor, is that, if you recall, I believe that 22 Dr. Borack has been in court and has testified, and I believe 23 he has identified the report in an earlier proceeding. I 24 wanted to clarify that so there isn't any confusion. 25 THE COURT: Okay. All right. Objection will 5
1 be sustained. 2 MR. DUCOTE: Thank you. 3 DR. (redacted) 4 the plaintiff herein, after having been first duly sworn and 5 cautioned, was examined and testified as follows: 6 CROSS-EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. DUCOTE: 8 Q. Would you state your name and address, please. 9 A. (redacted), (redacted), 10 Cincinnati, Ohio. 11 Q. Okay. And you're the father of (redacted) and 12 (redacted)? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You're married to (Kelly redacted) (redacted)? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Okay. Have you ever seen the book 17 "Understanding the Borderline Mother: Helping Her Children 18 Transcend the Intense, Unpredictable and Volatile 19 Relationship," that was written by Christine Anne Lawson?
20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. When did you first see this book? 22 A. Summer of 2003. 23 Q. And where did you first see it? 24 A. That book was purchased by my wife (Kelly redacted). 25 Q. And where was it purchased by your wife (Kelly redacted)? 6
1 A. I believe she got it from Amazon. 2 Q. Now, were you aware that she was going to 3 purchase it before she purchased it? 4 A. Um, we had -- no -- well, no. 5 Q. Well, what was the first time that you actually 6 knew that she had purchased the book? 7 A. The summer of 2003. 8 Q. But how is it that you came to know it? What 9 was the event that happened? Did she come and say, oh, here, 10 I bought this book? 11 A. No. The event was started by our son (redacted), 12 who, for several months -- 13 Q. That's not my question, Dr. (redacted). 14 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Be an objection, your Honor. 15 I believe -- 16 THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead. 17 A. The book came from (redacted) our son, who, for 18 several months prior to the purchase of the book, he would 19 come over, he would ask a lot of questions, what is paranoia, 20 what is borderline personality, what is obsessive compulsive 21 disorder. And he had mentioned that at his mom's, she would 22 be often on the Internet and -- 23 MR. DUCOTE: I would object to hearsay, your 24 Honor. It's not responsive to the question. I asked him how 25 he learned -- 7
1 THE COURT: Sustained. 2 A. And so through that, (redacted)'s conversations 3 with asking us, my wife and I, why does Mom act the way she 4 does, why does she always ask questions on -- 5 MR. DUCOTE: Your Honor, object to the hearsay. 6 It's not responsive. 7 THE COURT: Sustained. Just answer the 8 question, Doctor. Don't volunteer any information. 9 A. Could you please repeat the question? 10 Q. The question is, can you describe the event or 11 the incident upon which you learned that your wife bought 12 this book? 13 A. She told me. 14 Q. Okay. And did she show you the book when she 15 got it? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. Now, did she tell you why she got the 18 book? For what purpose? What was she going to do with the 19 book? 20 A. To try and help our family understand the 21 issues that our son -- well, my son and daughter, (redacted) -- 22 were raising about the ongoing constant battle we were 23 facing. 24 Q. Now, did she ask you ahead of time whether or 25 not this was something that she should do? 8
1 A. We had discussed -- specifically about buying 2 that particular book? 3 Q. Yeah. 4 A. No. 5 Q. Okay. Did she discuss with you whether she 6 should sit down and discuss and read this book to (redacted)? 7 A. I'm sorry. Could you please repeat that? 8 Q. Did she discuss with you whether or not it 9 would be a good idea to sit down and read this book to 10 (redacted)? 11 A. She never asked me that question, no. 12 Q. Okay. Did she discuss with you at all whether 13 or not this book should be shown to (redacted)? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And what did you tell her? 16 A. I told her that we shouldn't sit and read it to 17 him. 18 THE COURT: What? I'm sorry. 19 DR. (redacted): We should not read it to him. 20 THE COURT: We should not read it to him? 21 DR. (redacted): Yes, sir. 22 BY MR. DUCOTE: 23 Q. Okay. What did you tell her should be done 24 with the book vis-a-vis (redacted)? 25 A. We should use that book to guide our responses 9
1 to his questions on what was personality disorders. 2 Q. Now, (redacted) is how old? 3 A. He's 11. 4 Q. Okay. So at 11 years old, (redacted) was 5 interested in psychiatric diagnoses, you're telling this 6 Court? 7 A. No, he was not interested in psychiatric 8 diagnoses. 9 Q. You did say he was interested in paranoia 10 borderline personality disorder. 11 A. He was asking us what those terms meant. 12 Q. Okay. Now, have you read this book? 13 A. Very briefly. 14 Q. Have you looked through it? 15 A. I've read parts of it. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. But not the -- I don't have a good knowledge of 18 the whole book. 19 Q. Well, you're aware that this book was the 20 subject of a great part of your wife's deposition last month? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Since then, have you looked at the book? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Are you aware that this book gives different 25 terms to different types of mothers? 10
1 A. I was made aware of that during your 2 deposition. 3 Q. For example, the "make-believe mother", the 4 "waif mother", the "hermit mother", the "witch mother"? 5 A. That's in the table of contents. 6 Q. Now, did you ever learn that your wife was 7 actually sitting down with (redacted) and showing him the book, 8 discussing the book, the contents of the book with him? 9 A. I don't believe that happened. 10 Q. You don't believe that happened? You weren't 11 at her deposition? 12 A. (Nodding head). 13 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Your Honor, I believe the 14 question has been answered. 15 THE COURT: Sustained. 16 BY MR. DUCOTE: 17 Q. Since your wife's deposition, have you and her 18 altered the policy regarding her use of this book with 19 (redacted)? 20 A. We've decided not to discuss personality 21 disorders with him. 22 Q. Okay. And at what point did you decide not to 23 do that anymore? 24 A. Probably sometime this year. 25 Q. Well, was it since the deposition? 11
1 A. No. It was before. 2 Q. Before the deposition? 3 A. (Nodding head). Yes, sir. 4 Q. What made you decide to stop doing that? 5 A. Because we felt that with all the turmoil going 6 on, that it would be more confusing to (redacted) to try and 7 decipher all the terms he was asking us, and we decided that 8 it just wasn't in his best interests to try and explain to 9 him, in our opinion, what was the cause of his mom's behavior 10 of constantly asking him questions about abuse, about what he 11 does at our house and along those lines. And it just felt 12 that I wasn't -- it wasn't my expertise to do that. 13 Q. Well, what mental health professionals did you 14 consult about these issues? 15 A. No one. 16 Q. None. And what mental health professionals did 17 you consult about whether it was a good idea to discuss 18 borderline personality with an 11 year old? 19 A. Could you please repeat the question? 20 Q. Yeah. What mental health person -- what mental 21 health professionals did you discuss whether or not it was a 22 good idea to discuss this borderline personality book with, 23 at that time, (redacted)? 24 A. I didn't discuss that with anyone. 25 Q. Now, have you -- has (redacted) seen any mental 12
1 health professionals since -- well, let me rephrase that. 2 When was the last time (redacted), to your knowledge, saw a 3 mental health professional? 4 A. To my knowledge, it was Doctors Boat and 5 Olafson. 6 Q. And when was that? 7 A. I believe that occurred in the spring of 2001, 8 I believe. 9 Q. Now, do you know whether or not your wife ever 10 uses the term "crazy" to (redacted) vis-a-vis his mother or 11 discuss -- in describing his mother? 12 A. I've heard that term used to describe Teresa's 13 behavior with this abuse issue. But we always make it a 14 point to tell (redacted) that his -- we do not believe his 15 mother's crazy. 16 Q. Well, what do you and your wife tell (redacted) 17 regarding his mother and the context of the term "crazy"? 18 A. That we believe that the ongoing battles of 19 abuse, custody, visitation is crazy. That's the -- we're 20 very careful to always pretense that with telling (redacted), 21 "We're not saying your mother is crazy. We just believe the 22 actions and what's going on is." 23 Q. Okay. So you say, in effect, "What your mother 24 is doing is crazy, but we want to distinguish between what 25 she does as being crazy and her being crazy," right? 13
1 MR. MASTRUSERIO: I believe the question has 2 been answered, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: Overruled. 4 A. Yeah. I'm not sure that that -- I don't 5 understand your question, to be honest with you. 6 Q. Okay. I'll rephrase. You and your wife do 7 tell (redacted) that what his mother does is crazy, right? 8 A. What we say is we believe some of the actions, 9 some of the things that occur in the course of the divorce 10 is. 11 Q. Is crazy? 12 A. Is crazy. 13 Q. And you use that term to (redacted) relative to 14 his mother? 15 A. To her behavior, with the course of the 16 divorce, not specifically calling her crazy. 17 Q. Okay. But you use the word "crazy" when you 18 discuss his mother, right? 19 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Your Honor -- 20 THE COURT: Sustained. 21 A. In the context -- 22 THE COURT: Sustained. When I rule you don't 23 have to answer, okay? 24 DR. (redacted): Yes, sir. 25 BY MR. DUCOTE: 14
1 Q. When was the last time, to your knowledge, that 2 was done? 3 A. I don't know. It's been a while. I can't 4 recall using that term recently. 5 Q. Do you know Kira Kerstine? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. And who is she? 8 A. She's the school psychologist at All Saints 9 School. 10 Q. Did Kira Kerstine ever tell you that -- well, 11 let me back up a little bit. Do you recall an emergency 12 motion that Mr. Mastruserio prepared in December of -- I 13 believe it was December of 2002, just before Christmas? 14 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Your Honor, if counsel's 15 referring to a document that I prepared and did not file with 16 the court later, did not present the motion to the Court, I'm 17 going to object. It was never -- 18 MR. DUCOTE: It absolutely is relevant, for 19 this reason. First of all, Mr. Mastruserio sent it to us 20 indicating he was filing it and having a hearing on it. 21 Second of all, there are recommendations in there -- in that 22 motion that are absolutely false. And so I think the fact 23 that it was never filed is not relevant at this point. 24 THE COURT: Sustain the objection. 25 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Thank you. 15
1 BY MR. DUCOTE: 2 Q. Did Kira Kerstine ever tell you that (redacted) 3 told her that his mother had him go make complaints about you 4 to her? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Did you ever make representation of such? 7 A. I spoke with her and asked her if she could 8 give me some details and the circumstances involved in the 9 accusations made, and she wouldn't discuss it. 10 Q. Now, how do you characterize Teresa's conduct 11 to (redacted)? Do you do it the same way? 12 A. No. It's a much different relationship with 13 (redacted) and Teresa. (redacted) -- 14 THE COURT: I think for the record we ought to 15 say who Teresa and (redacted) are. 16 MR. DUCOTE: Okay. 17 BY MR. DUCOTE: 18 Q. Teresa (redacted) being your ex-wife, and 19 (redacted) being your daughter, (redacted) being your son, correct? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. And (redacted) is seven years old? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Okay. Do you ever use the term "crazy" with 24 (redacted) in discussing her mother? 25 A. No. 16
1 MR. DUCOTE: Your Honor, I'm going to ask this 2 this book be marked as Defendant's Exhibit One. 3 (Defendant's Exhibit One marked for identification.)
4 MR. DUCOTE: I offer to introduce, file into 5 evidence, and I'll take these tabs off. Offer into 6 introduce, file into evidence, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Okay. Have you seen the book, Mr. 8 Mastruserio? 9 MR. MASTRUSERIO: I saw it briefly at the 10 deposition. I have not read the book, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 MR. MASTRUSERIO: It was identified, I believe, 13 during the deposition. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 BY MR. DUCOTE: 16 Q. Dr. (redacted), do you believe that at this 17 point your children need any sort of therapy? 18 A. I think that the children need some guidance in 19 understanding the ongoing accusations. 20 MR. DUCOTE: Again, your Honor, I'm going to 21 ask that he answer the question directly, the direct 22 question, do they need therapy. 23 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Your Honor -- 24 MR. DUCOTE: He wants to give a speech about 25 ongoing accusations. It was a direct question. 17
1 THE COURT: Doctor, you have to answer yes or 2 no. And then if you feel it needs an explanation, you may 3 explain your answer, okay, if it needs an explanation. 4 DR. (redacted): Yes, sir. 5 THE COURT: If not, just answer yes or no. You 6 want to repeat the question? 7 BY MR. DUCOTE: 8 Q. The question was do your children need therapy 9 at this point? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And how long have they needed therapy? 12 A. Probably since -- I don't know. I mean, I 13 don't understand your question, really. 14 Q. How long have they needed therapy? 15 A. I would probably -- since 1997. 16 Q. And have you taken them to therapy? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Have you made any effort whatsoever to obtain 19 therapy for them? 20 A. Yes. I made some telephone calls. 21 Q. And when was that? 22 A. All through -- probably since 1999. 23 Q. So you're still making phone calls trying to 24 get therapy for them? 25 A. No, I haven't made any calls since last year. 18
1 Q. Okay. Have the kids seen any mental health 2 professional in the last two years? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Does Teresa have, in your view, any positive 5 parenting attributes? 6 A. I think she has potential to. 7 THE COURT: I'm sorry? 8 DR. (redacted): She has the potential to. 9 BY MR. DUCOTE: 10 Q. So as of now, she has no positive parenting 11 attributes, correct, in your view? 12 A. I haven't had any contact with her. I don't 13 know. 14 Q. Can't think of one? 15 A. I think that she's the mother of my children, 16 of (redacted) and (redacted). 17 Q. So some chromosomes? That would be it? Some 18 genes? 19 A. I think that she cares for them. 20 Q. Um-hum. In fact, it's your intent for your 21 current wife (Kelly redacted), to, in essence, be their mother, correct? 22 A. No. 23 MR. DUCOTE: I don't have any other questions 24 at this point, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: Thank you very much, Doctor. You 19
1 may step down. Thank you. 2 MR. DUCOTE: Call (Kelly redacted) (redacted). 3 (The witness was called.) 4 (Kelly redacted) (redacted) 5 the witness herein, after having been first duly sworn and 6 cautioned, was examined and testified as follows: 7 THE COURT: Give us your full name, please, 8 spell your last name. Speak out nice and loud so she can 9 hear you. 10 THE WITNESS: Okay. (Kelly redacted) (redacted), 11 (redacted). 12 THE COURT: And your address, please? 13 THE WITNESS: (redacted), and 14 that's Cincinnati, Ohio, (redacted). 15 THE COURT: I'm sorry. The door opened and 16 closed. (redacted)? 17 THE WITNESS: (redacted). Cincinnati, Ohio, (redacted). 18 THE COURT: Thank you. 19 CROSS-EXAMINATION 20 BY MR. DUCOTE: 21 Q. Good morning, Miss (redacted). 22 A. Morning. 23 Q. You're the current wife of Dr. (redacted) 24 (redacted)? 25 A. Correct. 20
1 Q. And when were the two of you married? 2 A. March 11th, 2000. 3 Q. Have you ever met Teresa (redacted)? 4 A. Brief circumstances, yes. 5 Q. Okay. And when was that? 6 A. I first met Teresa (redacted) in June. I take 7 that back. July of 1997. 8 Q. Okay. And how much time did you spend with her 9 at that point? 10 A. Probably about five minutes. 11 Q. Okay. And how about after that? 12 A. Very brief interchanges. Usually upon the 13 exchange of the children, so -- 14 THE COURT: You have to keep your voice up, 15 okay? 16 THE WITNESS: Okay. 17 BY MR. DUCOTE: 18 Q. What's the longest time you ever spent talking 19 to Teresa (redacted)? 20 A. Five minutes. 21 Q. Okay. Now, do you work outside the home? 22 A. Currently, I do not. 23 Q. Okay. And what was the last employment 24 position you had? 25 A. I was employed by Health South Corporation. 21
1 Q. And in doing what? 2 A. I was basically doing administrative work. 3 Q. Do you have any mental health training or 4 anything? 5 A. No, I do not. 6 Q. Now, do you recall at some point you were the 7 supervisor of visitations between Dr. (redacted) and his 8 kids? 9 A. I do. 10 Q. And do you know what period of time that was? 11 A. That lasted from July of 1997 through February 12 of 1998. 13 Q. Now, how is it that you came to be the 14 supervisor? 15 A. I had been present with (redacted) and 16 (redacted) and (redacted) one day at Tri-Health Pavilion. It's a 17 swimming pool. We spent the day with the kids swimming and 18 playing various games. That particular day became a day that 19 Teresa accused (redacted) of abusing (redacted). (redacted) was made aware 20 of that accusation -- 21 Q. My question was who made you the supervisor? 22 How did you get to be the supervisor? 23 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Your Honor, he asked her how 24 she came to be the supervisor, and she as answering his 25 question. 22
1 MR. DUCOTE: It wasn't responsive, the long 2 narrative with all kind of speeches. 3 THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead. 4 A. Children's Services was contacted by Teresa in 5 July. (redacted) was made aware that his visitation was 6 automatically terminated. This was going to go through, 7 like, an investigation with Children's Services. The case 8 worker's name at the time was Denise Orchard. I had been 9 there that day, and I felt -- I asked (redacted), I'm like, "Do you 10 want me to call Children's Services as a witness?" 11 Basically, I was there. I saw nothing happen. He said, "If 12 you want to do that, go ahead." He gave me the name of the 13 person to contact. I did contact Denise Orchard, who told me 14 at the time -- 15 THE COURT: Not what they told you. 16 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry? 17 THE COURT: Not what they told you. You can't 18 tell us what they told you. 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. 20 BY MR. DUCOTE: 21 Q. Did you offer yourself as a supervisor or did 22 somebody ask you to be the supervisor? 23 A. Denise Orchard mentioned that when -- 24 THE COURT: Ma'am, the question -- make it real 25 easy, okay. Did you offer yourself or did somebody ask. 23
1 That was the question. 2 A. Denise Orchard asked if I would be telling to 3 act as supervisor when his visitation resumed. 4 Q. Now, at that time, what was your relationship 5 with Dr. (redacted)? 6 A. I was a friend of Dr. (redacted)'s. 7 Q. Okay. And at some -- were you dating him at 8 that point? 9 A. No. 10 Q. And at some point, did you begin dating him? 11 A. At some point, yes. 12 Q. And that -- was that while you were the 13 supervisor of visitation? 14 A. No. 15 Q. It was after? 16 A. It was after. 17 Q. Okay. You never dated him while you were 18 supervising the visits? 19 A. Sometime after, yes. 20 Q. Sometime after the supervision ended or 21 sometime after -- 22 A. Sometime after the supervision -- sometime 23 after the supervision began. 24 Q. Began. 25 A. Correct. 24
1 Q. You began dating Dr. (redacted)? 2 A. We were spending a lot of time together. The 3 supervision schedule was -- it was pretty -- I mean, there 4 was a lot of time spent together. 5 Q. You were dating him, correct? 6 A. Not at the beginning. Not when -- not when 7 supervision started, we were not dating. 8 Q. That's not my question, ma'am. Somewhere along 9 the way while you were supervising the visitation between Dr. 10 (redacted) and the children, you began a romantic 11 relationship with him, did you not? 12 A. Not romantic. We began dating. We began going 13 out to dinner, going out, you know, with other people, you 14 know. We began talking in earnest relationships, about, you 15 know -- 16 Q. That's not dating? 17 A. Things began getting more, you know, serious. 18 Q. You don't call that dating him? 19 A. I -- now, I don't -- I don't have a time line 20 for how things, you know -- 21 Q. Right. But it was while you were supervising 22 the visits? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. Okay. 25 A. I mean, because like I said, the supervised 25
1 period lasted from July of 1997 through February of 1998. 2 Q. Okay. And as of February of 1998, at that 3 point, did you have a sexual relationship with Dr. 4 (redacted)? 5 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Judge, is that relevant? 6 MR. DUCOTE: I think it is. 7 THE COURT: Overruled. 8 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Okay. 9 A. So I answer that question? Okay. In February 10 of 1998, no. 11 Q. Do you recall when you testified in court? Do 12 you remember when that was? 13 A. That would have been February 4th. 14 Q. Of 1998? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. Okay. And at that point, did you inform the 17 Court that you had a romantic relationship with Dr. 18 (redacted)? 19 A. No, I did not. 20 Q. Did you ever inform Children's Protective 21 Service that you had a romantic relationship with Dr. 22 (redacted)? 23 A. No, I did not. 24 Q. Did you ever inform anybody? 25 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Judge, I don't think she's 26
1 under a duty to inform anyone if she gets romantic with 2 somebody. 3 THE COURT: I'm going to sustain the objection. 4 BY MR. DUCOTE: 5 Q. Now, do you believe that (redacted) and (redacted) 6 need therapy? 7 A. I do, yes. 8 Q. Okay. And have you discussed this with Dr. 9 (redacted)? 10 A. Yes, we've discussed it. 11 Q. Okay. And what have you done to get them 12 therapy? 13 THE COURT: I sorry. When you turn your back, 14 I can't hear you. 15 MR. DUCOTE: I'm sorry, your Honor. 16 BY MR. DUCOTE: 17 Q. Have you done anything to try to get them 18 therapy? 19 A. I don't feel it's my position to get them 20 therapy in the position I'm in. 21 Q. Okay. So you don't play a role in the mental 22 health issues with the children in that sense? 23 A. In as far as obtaining therapy for them from a 24 professional, no. 25 Q. Okay. Well has your husband told you that the 27
1 kids need therapy? 2 A. As I said, we've discussed their need for 3 therapy. 4 Q. Okay. And how long have you been discussing 5 the need for therapy with your husband? 6 A. Quite some time. 7 Q. Okay. About how long? 8 A. A number of years. 9 Q. Okay. 10 THE COURT: What did you say, ma'am? 11 THE WITNESS: A number of years. 12 BY MR. DUCOTE: 13 Q. And your husband's a physician, right? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. You all make good money, right? He makes a 16 good income, correct? 17 A. It can be afforded, a professional, correct. 18 Q. You got medical insurance? 19 A. Medical, correct. 20 Q. Okay. Well, what reason has Dr. (redacted) 21 given you, if any, for the fact that the kids have never 22 gotten any therapy? 23 A. It is both of our beliefs that no professional 24 in this city wants to get involved in this particular case. 25 Q. So that's what Dr. (redacted)'s telling you? 28
1 A. I firmly believe that. I've heard that myself. 2 Q. That's not my question. Is that what Dr. 3 (redacted) told you was the reason that the kids aren't in 4 therapy? 5 A. That's what we've discussed, yes. 6 Q. Okay. And when did -- when was that conclusion 7 stated by your husband? 8 A. It's a belief that we've held for a while as 9 we've gone through this process because any of the 10 professionals that get involved are basically in fear of 11 being drug into court. 12 Q. And you've talked to these professionals, have 13 you? 14 A. I've talked to several of them, yes. 15 Q. What mental health professionals have you 16 talked to? 17 A. Dr. Stuart Bassman. 18 Q. And you've talked to him about treating the 19 kids, therapy? 20 A. Did he think that anyone he knew in the city -- 21 Q. That's not the question. 22 THE COURT: No, now she's answering your 23 question. 24 MR. DUCOTE: No, my question was did you talk 25 to him about seeing the kids in therapy. That was the 29
1 question. 2 THE COURT: That's her answer. Go ahead. 3 Answer. 4 A. I asked him would he -- did he think that 5 anyone would see these children. 6 Q. When did you have that discussion with him? 7 A. Somewhat recently. 8 Q. How recent? 9 A. I would say the past two months. 10 Q. Okay. Past two months. Well, let's go back 11 over the years. What other mental health professionals have 12 you talked to about seeing the kids in therapy? 13 A. Dr. Boat and Dr. Olafson. 14 Q. Well, they saw the kids, right? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. Okay. Now, Dr. Boat and Dr. Olafson finished 17 their work several years ago. Have you talked to anyone else 18 besides Dr. Bassman? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Okay. Has your husband told you that he 21 specifically talked to any particular individuals about 22 whether they would treat the kids? 23 A. Not that I can recall. 24 Q. Okay. Now -- 25 MR. DUCOTE: May I approach the witness, your 30
1 Honor? 2 THE COURT: Yes, please. 3 BY MR. DUCOTE: 4 Q. I'm going to show you what's been introduced 5 into evidence as Defendant's Exhibit One.
6 THE COURT: It hasn't been introduced yet. 7 MR. DUCOTE: It was offered. 8 THE COURT: It's just been marked. 9 MR. DUCOTE: It's been offered. 10 THE COURT: It's been offered. We haven't 11 ruled whether or not -- 12 MR. DUCOTE: Can we get a ruling at this point? 13 THE COURT: That's okay. You can still talk to 14 her about it. 15 MR. DUCOTE: Okay. 16 BY MR. DUCOTE: 17 Q. Show you what's been marked as Defendant's 18 Exhibit One and ask you if you've seen that book before? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And where have you seen that book before? 21 A. I purchased that book myself. 22 Q. Okay. And where did you purchase it? 23 A. I purchased that book through the Internet. 24 Q. Okay. And have you discussed that book with 25 anybody? 31
1 A. I discussed this book with my husband and with 2 (redacted). 3 Q. Okay. Now -- 4 THE COURT: What was the last part again? 5 THE WITNESS: I discussed it with my husband 6 and with (redacted). 7 THE COURT: And with (redacted). Thank you. 8 MR. DUCOTE: Okay. 9 BY MR. DUCOTE: 10 Q. Now, did you discuss the book with your husband 11 before or after you purchased it? 12 A. Before and after. 13 Q. Okay. Well, tell me the discussion that you 14 had with him before you purchased it. 15 A. The discussion that I had with him before I 16 purchased it, I told him that (redacted) had come home from a 17 visit at Teresa's and he asked me, "What is borderline 18 personality? And could that be what's wrong with my mom and 19 her family?" This caught me off guard. I said, "I don't 20 know," and honestly, I just kind of tried to change the 21 subject. So I told (redacted) about the conversation, and he told 22 me, basically, let's just let it lie, you know. 23 (redacted) on a subsequent, you know, day, asked again, 24 you know, about borderline personality. "Do you think that 25 may be -- could that, you know, be why mom continually, you 32
1 know, tells me that I'm abused, tells me that I have to lie 2 to other people about being abused? Is that why she's, you 3 know, afraid of, you know, people? Always, you know, 4 somebody's always out to get her? Is that why she's afraid 5 of shark attacks? Is that why she's afraid of the West Nile 6 Virus? Is that why she's afraid of sniper bullets?" 7 Q. (redacted) is saying all this? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. Is this a conversation you had with your 10 husband? 11 A. I related these conversations to my husband. 12 Q. Okay. So what was his response? Go get this 13 book? 14 A. His response was, you know, just try and calm 15 him down. Just, you know, I'll talk to him too. So, you 16 know, we had these conversations with (redacted), you know. 17 Basically the conversations rely on just trying to calm him 18 down. "It's not your fault, (redacted)." Just, you know -- 19 Q. Right. Well, did you ever ask (redacted) where 20 did you hear the term "borderline personality disorder"? 21 A. I did not. I actually asked my husband. I 22 said, "Do you know, do you have any idea --" 23 Q. That's not the question, ma'am. The question 24 is did you ever ask (redacted) where did he hear the term 25 "borderline personality disorder"? 33
1 A. I did not. 2 Q. Okay. Now, that didn't strike you as odd that 3 an 11 year old, if that happened, came and asked you about 4 borderline personality disorder, where he heard that word? 5 A. I think it's very odd. But you have to 6 understand, (redacted) is not a normal 11-year-old kid. 7 Q. Okay. So did your husband -- okay. So did 8 your husband know in the advance of your purchasing the book 9 that you were going to get this book? 10 A. I went to him and I said, "He's asking again 11 --" 12 Q. That's not my question, ma'am. It's real 13 specific. Before you purchased this book, was your husband 14 aware of the fact that you were going to purchase this book? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. In fact, you went on the Internet with 17 (redacted), in (redacted)'s presence, to look for books on 18 borderline personality disorder, did you not? 19 A. That's not true. 20 Q. It's not? 21 A. That's not true. 22 Q. Did you -- what did -- okay. What was the 23 first -- well, at some point you went on the Internet? 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. Okay. Now, at that point did you tell (redacted) 34
1 that you were going to try to research and find some stuff on 2 borderline personality? 3 A. He said, "What is it?" I said, "I'm not sure. 4 I'll look into it." 5 Q. So you had never heard the term before, 6 borderline personalities? 7 A. I had heard it. 8 Q. And you discussed that with your husband, 9 right? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. And that was something that you all had 12 discussed, a belief that that's what Teresa suffered from, 13 right? 14 A. It was a concern of ours, but definitely not 15 one that related to (redacted). 16 Q. Okay. So you and your husband are talking 17 about Teresa having borderline personality disorder, right? 18 A. Not in front of (redacted). 19 Q. Not in front of (redacted), okay. And then 20 suddenly you say (redacted) suddenly has the idea that maybe his 21 mother has borderline personality disorder, right? 22 A. (redacted) mentioned to me during his marriage to 23 Teresa there had been multiple discussions about Teresa's 24 brother having borderline personality disorder. 25 Q. That's not my question, ma'am. Real specific. 35
1 A. I thought that was pretty specific. 2 Q. All right. So your husband gave you the okay 3 to purchase the book? 4 MR. MASTRUSERIO: I think she's answered that 5 three times now, Judge. 6 THE COURT: Sustained. 7 BY MR. DUCOTE: 8 Q. Now, did you tell your husband what you were 9 going to do with the book? 10 A. I purchased the book and -- 11 THE COURT: The answer (sic) is did you tell 12 him what you were going to do with the book? I mean it makes 13 it easier, ma'am, if you just listen to the question and 14 answer specifically his question. If you feel it needs an 15 explanation, you may explain your answer, okay? 16 THE WITNESS: Okay. 17 THE COURT: Thank you. 18 A. Did I tell him what I was going to do with the 19 book? Yes. 20 Q. What did you tell him you were going to do with 21 the book? 22 A. I told him I was going to read the book myself. 23 Q. Okay. Anything else? 24 A. I told him that upon reading the book, you 25 know, I asked him if he would read the book. 36
1 Q. And what was his response? 2 A. "I'll read the book." 3 Q. Did he read the book? 4 A. As far as I know, yes. 5 Q. Okay. 6 Q. He read the whole book? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. Okay. And then what? What were you going to 9 do after that? 10 A. Should (redacted) ask again a specific, pointed 11 question, I would do the best of my ability, not being a 12 mental health professional, to try to calm him down if he 13 came with questions again on why does Mom act the way she's 14 acting, because the title of the book is helping the children 15 transcend, you know -- 16 Q. The borderline personality? 17 A. Transcend a volatile relationship. 18 Q. So is it your position that at 11 years old, 19 (redacted) had diagnosed his mother with suffering from 20 borderline personality disorder, and it was your job to then 21 take it -- help him deal with his mother's borderline 22 personality disorder? 23 A. I felt it was my role as a parent to help a kid 24 who was hurting. 25 Q. Yeah, with the borderline personality book? 37
1 A. The book is called "Helping Children Transcend 2 A Volatile Relationship". 3 Q. Right. 4 A. Basically, the parts of the book that I relayed 5 to (redacted) were, "(redacted), it's not your fault." 6 Q. Okay. Now, let's back up a little bit. Did 7 you ever discuss with your husband maybe consulting with a 8 mental health professional about how to deal with this? 9 A. Once again, to the best of -- 10 Q. The question is real specific. 11 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Judge, I'm going to object 12 because he's already asked her that question. 13 THE COURT: I don't know. 14 MR. DUCOTE: This is a different question. 15 THE COURT: Overruled. 16 BY MR. DUCOTE: 17 Q. Did you discuss with your husband, well, about 18 consulting with a mental health professional rather than you 19 taking this upon yourself? 20 A. I'm sure we did, and it was both our opinions 21 that there was no one we could go to. 22 Q. It was your job to do? Okay. 23 A. There's no one to go to. What could we do? 24 Q. Sure, okay. 25 A. Should I have -- should we just do nothing? I 38
1 mean -- 2 Q. As opposed to what you did, yes. 3 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Be an objection, your Honor, 4 to counsel's comments. 5 THE COURT: Sustained. She asked the question. 6 Overruled. 7 BY MR. DUCOTE: 8 Q. Now, did you ever sit down with (redacted) with 9 that book in you hands? 10 A. That's the question? 11 Q. Yeah. 12 A. I showed him the cover. He wanted to read the 13 book. And I said, "No, it's not, you know, a kid's -- it's 14 not age appropriate," you know. He's like, "No, I really --" 15 he can tend to be precocious, and I said, "Really, this is 16 not an age-appropriate book. What I would like to do is I'd 17 like to read it and then just, you know, whenever, you know, 18 you want --" it was just very, like, a flowing kind of, you 19 know. I wasn't sitting down, like, these are, you know, 20 here, it's school time now, you know. 21 Q. But when you discussed this book with (redacted), 22 it was clearly conveyed as something that had to do with his 23 mother, this book, right? 24 A. The discussions would be if (redacted) was upset, 25 here's why I'm upset, and what I took from that book is -- 39
1 Q. That's not my question, ma'am. 2 A. Well, okay. 3 Q. My question is real specific. When you 4 discussed this with (redacted), this book, it was conveyed to 5 (redacted) that this book related to his mother, correct? 6 A. I did not convey that to (redacted). What I 7 conveyed to (redacted) was the things he was going through was 8 not his fault. That's what I conveyed to (redacted). 9 Q. Based on this book, right? 10 A. Based -- what I was taking out of this book was 11 getting through to this kid that feeling this pressure, it's 12 not his fault, take the pressure off his shoulders. 13 Q. But the context of it all was his mother had 14 this borderline personality disorder, right? 15 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Judge, he's asked that 16 question. 17 THE COURT: Sustained. It's cross. I don't 18 know if this witness is as if on cross, or is it -- 19 MR. DUCOTE: Yes, sir. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 MR. MASTRUSERIO: He never asked for that. 22 THE COURT: I know he didn't. 23 MR. MASTRUSERIO: He subpoenaed her. 24 MR. DUCOTE: There was no objection. But 25 obviously she's an adverse witness. Isn't that -- 40
1 THE COURT: Go ahead. 2 MR. MASTRUSERIO: I think he has to declare 3 that before -- 4 MR. DUCOTE: Then I would ask for that 5 declaration. 6 THE COURT: Go ahead. It'll be granted. 7 BY MR. DUCOTE: 8 Q. Did you ever read anything specific to (redacted) 9 from the book? 10 A. No, I did not. I didn't feel it was age 11 appropriate. 12 Q. Well, did you discuss with (redacted) the 13 different types of mothers that are represented in the book? 14 A. No, I did not. 15 Q. Did (redacted) look at the book? 16 A. He saw the cover, yes. 17 Q. Didn't see the contents, table of contents? 18 A. Not that I'm aware of, no. 19 MR. DUCOTE: May I approach again, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: Yes, please. 21 BY MR. DUCOTE: 22 Q. Did you ever discuss with (redacted) the hermit 23 mother? 24 A. Not in those terms, no. 25 Q. Well, in what terms did you discuss the hermit 41
1 mother with (redacted)? 2 A. (redacted) would relay, "Why is Mom only friends 3 with her family?" I would say, "You know, (redacted), I don't 4 know. The good thing is you have friends," you know. But 5 did I discuss the term "hermit mother"? No, I did not. 6 Q. Did you discuss the term "witch mother" with 7 him? 8 A. No. 9 Q. You remember in your deposition which was taken 10 on January 14th, 2004, page 47, asking you on line 13, "Did 11 you use the term 'hermit mother' with him?" 12 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Counsel -- or your Honor, can 13 I have a second to dig this out? 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Page 47? Okay. 16 BY MR. DUCOTE: 17 Q. Page 47, line 13, "Did you use the term 'hermit 18 mother' with him?" You remember your answer? 19 A. I would think it's the same that I said now. 20 Q. It is? 21 A. Not specifically. 22 Q. Okay. I'm going to show you your deposition. 23 Line 47. 24 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Your Honor, I think that the 25 appropriate way to -- 42
1 MR. DUCOTE: I can read it to her. 2 MR. MASTRUSERIO: -- do that is to ask her 3 first the question, and then -- 4 MR. DUCOTE: I already did. 5 MR. MASTRUSERIO: He can then read the question 6 and her response. 7 BY MR. DUCOTE: 8 Q. In your deposition, did you say, "Possibly."? 9 A. Possibly I did. 10 Q. Possibly you did? 11 A. Say that in my deposition. 12 Q. Is that your answer today, that you possibly 13 used the term "hermit mother" with him? 14 A. I don't believe I did. 15 Q. Okay. But in your deposition -- 16 MR. DUCOTE: May I show her the deposition, 17 your Honor? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 BY MR. DUCOTE: 20 Q. I asked you on line 13, page 47, "Did you use 21 the term 'hermit mother' with him?" What was your answer on 22 line 14? 23 A. "Possibly." 24 Q. Okay. So is your answer today the same? 25 A. Possibly I don't believe I did. 43 1 Q. Now, did you explain to (redacted) that the hermit 2 mother sounds like his mother? 3 A. Like I said, when discussing -- 4 Q. It's a real direct question, ma'am. 5 A. Okay. 6 Q. Did you ever describe to (redacted) or explain to 7 (redacted) that the hermit mother sounds like his mother? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Okay. Do you remember being asked that in your 10 deposition? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Okay. Page 47, line 15, I asked you, "And did 13 you explain that this book you read describes the hermit 14 mother and that sounds like his mother? You're under oath, 15 ma'am." Do you know what your answer was on line 20? 16 A. No. 17 MR. DUCOTE: May I approach, your Honor? 18 THE COURT: Yes, please. 19 BY MR. DUCOTE: 20 Q. What's your answer on line 20? 21 A. "I mean, possibly." 22 Q. Now, were you relating to your husband the fact 23 that you were having these conversations with (redacted) about 24 his mother? Did you discuss that with your husband? 25 A. I was relating the fact that (redacted) was upset 44
1 and, you know, we were talking about it. 2 Q. And was he supportive of what you were doing? 3 A. I mean, both of us were supportive of trying to 4 calm this kid down. 5 Q. But was he supportive of what you were doing 6 with the book and how you were using this with (redacted)? 7 A. We felt the book -- 8 Q. It's a real direct, simple question, ma'am. 9 Was he supportive of what you were doing? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. Now, on this issue of the hermit mother, 12 did you ever tell (redacted) -- discuss with (redacted) what this 13 book says is the hermit mother? 14 A. I did not read any particular excerpts from the 15 book to (redacted), no. 16 Q. Well, did you talk to him about what this book 17 says is a hermit mother? 18 A. No. 19 Q. You remember being asked in your deposition on 20 line 46 -- 21 A. No. 22 Q. Okay. I'm sorry. Page 46, line 15, "Did you 23 talk to him about what this book describes as the hermit 24 mother?" Do you know what your answer was on line 23? 25 A. If I had to guess, was it "possibly"? 45
1 Q. Almost. 2 MR. DUCOTE: May I approach, your Honor? 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 BY MR. DUCOTE: 5 Q. Line 46. I'm sorry, line 23, what's your 6 answer? 7 A. "I may have." 8 Q. Now, have you ever used the term "crazy" in 9 discussing Teresa (redacted) with (redacted)? 10 A. In terms of her actions only. 11 Q. Yes. So you have used the term "crazy"? 12 A. The term "crazy" has been used in describing 13 her actions. 14 Q. How many times? 15 A. It depends on how many times the kids will 16 relate actions that clearly seem crazy. 17 Q. Okay. So whenever they say something that you 18 think is crazy on Teresa's part, you tell the kids that 19 that's crazy, correct? 20 A. Say those actions, you know, are not right. 21 Q. You use the term "crazy", right? 22 A. At certain times, yes. It depends on the 23 severity. I mean, if they're reporting a story of how 24 they're being put in a closet and made to draw pictures of 25 penises and vaginas , yes ,we usually will relate that as 46
1 crazy. 2 Q. The kids are telling you that they're being put 3 in a closet and made to draw penises and vaginas? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. When was that? 6 A. Just this past weekend. 7 Q. Okay. And who did you report that to? 8 A. We didn't report it to anyone. 9 Q. Yeah. Has (redacted) ever told you that he 10 believes he now has borderline personality disorder? 11 A. No, he has not told me that. 12 Q. Okay. Are you aware that he's told Kira 13 Kerstine that? 14 A. I'm not aware of that, no. 15 Q. Your husband didn't -- you haven't heard 16 anything about what she said in her deposition? 17 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Objection, your Honor. She 18 answered the question. 19 MR. DUCOTE: Okay. 20 THE COURT: Sustained. 21 BY MR. DUCOTE: 22 Q. Now, do you have any regrets as you sit here 23 today about the discussions that you've had with (redacted) 24 about his mother? 25 A. I don't have any regrets in that I tried to 47
1 handle his questions the best way that I could. 2 Q. And you -- 3 A. I do believe (redacted) is an extremely 4 suggestible child. 5 Q. That's not the question, ma'am. 6 A. Okay. 7 Q. Do you have any regrets? 8 A. No. 9 Q. You intend to continue to do what you've been 10 doing, right? 11 A. Trying to help him, yes. 12 Q. You continue to do -- attempt to do it the same 13 way, right? 14 A. Try to help him, yes. 15 Q. And you continue -- you intend to continue 16 using the book the same way? 17 A. My husband and I would like to get him into -- 18 Q. That's not the question, ma'am. Do you plan to 19 continue using the "Understanding the Borderline Mother" the 20 same way? 21 A. Well, I'm sure that that book has been poured 22 over in his, you know, mother's house. So at this point -- 23 Q. Ma'am, that's not the question. Is it -- 24 A. At this point, I probably would not resort back 25 to the book, no. 48
1 Q. Okay. Now, have you and your husband made any 2 specific decisions to change the way that you deal with 3 (redacted) relative to his mother? 4 A. (redacted) and I would like to get (redacted) and 5 (redacted) -- I don't know why nobody's talking about (redacted) 6 here -- we would like to get them in therapy. 7 Q. That's not the question, ma'am. The question 8 is have you and your husband at any point made a conscious 9 decision that you are going to discuss Teresa with (redacted) in 10 a different way than you all have been doing in the past? 11 A. I -- I'm sorry. If you could -- 12 Q. I'll ask it again. Maybe I'm not being clear. 13 A. Okay. 14 Q. Have you and your husband made a specific 15 decision to do different -- do things differently than the 16 way that you discuss (redacted)'s mother with (redacted)? 17 A. I don't believe that we have ever tried to 18 blatantly demean his mother. 19 Q. Ma'am, that's not the question. The question 20 is real specific, and maybe it's my fault for not being 21 clear. Have you and your husband made a specific decision 22 that you will change the way that you discuss (redacted)'s 23 mother with him? 24 A. I'm not following. I need help. I'm not 25 following. 49
1 Q. I'll try it one more time, okay. Have you and 2 your husband made a decision that you will change the way 3 that you discuss Teresa with (redacted)? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Okay. In fact, you believe what you've been 6 doing with the borderline mother book with (redacted) has been a 7 positive experience for him, right? 8 A. We were trying to help. 9 Q. Ma'am, that's not the question. You believe 10 it's been a positive experience for him, right? 11 A. Not probably how it's been twisted, no. 12 Q. Okay. Ma'am, do you remember when I asked you 13 in your deposition, page 53, line 16 -- I'm sorry. Go back 14 to line 12. Well, I'll go back a little further. Line 8, I 15 asked you, "Do you think it was something (redacted) 16 appreciated?" Line 10, your answer was, "I think that 17 (redacted) appreciates, you know, talking." Line 12, "That's 18 not my question. Do you think he appreciated your sharing 19 the book about borderline mothers?" Your answer is, "Yes." 20 Line 16, "It was a positive experience for him?" Line 17, 21 "Correct." Is that your testimony in the deposition? 22 A. And my testimony still is. 23 Q. It was a positive experience? 24 A. (redacted) needs to talk about, you know, this 25 stuff isn't his fault, and that's the point of that book. 50
1 It's not his fault. 2 Q. Right. It's his hermit mother's fault, right? 3 A. That -- those were not our discussions. 4 Q. What about the witch mother? Did you ever 5 discuss that with him? 6 A. Not in specifics, no. 7 Q. Okay. What did you tell him about the witch 8 mother? 9 A. I didn't tell him anything about the witch 10 mother. 11 Q. Or the make-believe mother, the waif mother? 12 A. He's -- these conversations would come about by 13 (redacted) asking, "Why does she do this? Why does she do 14 that?" 15 Q. That's not my question, ma'am. Did you discuss 16 these other types of mothers with him? 17 A. No. 18 MR. DUCOTE: I offer to introduce into evidence 19 this book, your Honor, Exhibit One. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 BY MR. DUCOTE: 22 Q. Now, to your knowledge, has Teresa (redacted) 23 ever been -- has Teresa (redacted) ever been diagnosed as 24 having borderline personality disorder? 25 A. To my knowledge, no. 51
1 Q. Except by, as you say, (redacted) and you, right? 2 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Be an objection. She never 3 said that. 4 THE COURT: Sustained. 5 BY MR. DUCOTE: 6 Q. Did you ever during the course of legal -- this 7 legal case send a letter directly to Magistrate Theile? 8 A. I had written a letter in June of 1999 which, 9 to the best of my knowledge, I never sent. 10 Q. You never sent it? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Okay. And at whose direction did you prepare 13 the letter? 14 A. My own. I mean, it was my idea. I wrote the 15 letter. 16 Q. And what did you do with the letter? 17 A. Well, you know what? It was on my computer at 18 home. Exactly how -- and to the best of my knowledge, I 19 never sent that letter. I would like to know how it ended up 20 where it did. 21 Q. It came out of the family court file here. 22 A. (Shrugging shoulders.) 23 Q. You didn't send it? 24 A. To the best of my knowledge, I did not send 25 that letter. 52
1 Q. And when you wrote that letter, you were 2 involved romantically with Dr. (redacted), were you not? 3 A. That was 1999. I would have been, yes. 4 Q. Yeah. And you were sexually involved with him 5 at that point? 6 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Objection, your Honor. I 7 don't think it's relevant. 8 MR. DUCOTE: It is, your Honor. She's writing 9 letters to the court purporting -- 10 THE COURT: Overrule the objection. 11 BY MR. DUCOTE: 12 Q. You had developed a sexual relationship with 13 Dr. (redacted) at that point, right? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. Okay. And you sent a letter to the Magistrate 16 without -- giving your opinions and your views about the 17 case, right? 18 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Be an objection. She's just 19 answered the question that she never sent it. 20 THE COURT: Sustained. 21 BY MR. DUCOTE: 22 Q. Well, let's see. The letter that you wrote 23 that happened to end up in the family court file, it was 24 about your opinions about the case, right? 25 A. Not my opinions about the case. My 53
1 recollection of that letter was I was just asking someone to 2 help stop, you know -- it had gone on, I think, for four 3 years at that point. 4 Q. Right. And did you happen to mention your 5 personal relationship with Dr. (redacted) in the letter? 6 A. You know, if I'm not mistaken, family members 7 could, you know, write. So what was -- 8 Q. That's not my question, ma'am. 9 A. You're saying that I was misrepresenting 10 myself. 11 Q. It's a question, ma'am. Did you indicate in 12 the letter -- 13 A. No, I don't think that I put in that I was 14 having sex with him, no. 15 Q. Okay. That you had a personal relationship 16 with him? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Okay. Have you ever talked to Kira Kerstine? 19 A. Briefly. 20 Q. Okay. And who is she? 21 A. Kira Kerstine is a school psychologist employed 22 by All Saints. 23 Q. And do you know what her relationship with 24 (redacted) is? 25 A. My husband had signed (redacted) up for divorce 54
1 class at All Saints. It's where kids from divorced families 2 would meet, I believe, on a weekly basis and just talk about 3 various divorce-related issues. (redacted) had had him signed up in 4 the class three times. 5 Q. Do you know how many times she has seen (redacted) 6 at school in various different settings professionally? 7 A. I don't. I believe it would be for the fall 8 semester once a week. 9 Q. Okay. And why haven't you ever talked to her, 10 if you're so interested in his need for therapy and mental 11 health and things? 12 A. I believe that that's best dealt with by my 13 husband. 14 Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not he's talked 15 to her? 16 A. I believe he has. I believe he has, you know, 17 signed him up for the class, and -- 18 Q. Do you know how many times? 19 A. I don't. 20 Q. Okay. Did he tell you what's happening with 21 (redacted) in these classes? 22 A. You know, it was our belief to just let (redacted) 23 get stuff off of his chest, not to -- 24 Q. Okay. 25 A. -- hover over him and make him -- "What did you 55
1 talk about?" You know, it was our belief to let him talk in 2 these classes. 3 Q. Okay. Do you know -- have you heard the name 4 Renee (redacted)?
5 A. I have. I was only made aware of that name in 6 your deposition in January. 7 Q. Okay. So January of 2004 was the first time 8 you heard the name Renee (redacted)? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. Now, since your deposition was taken, have you 11 had any discussions with your husband about Renee (redacted), who 12 she is? 13 A. No. 14 Q. You haven't asked him? 15 A. I'm not interested. 16 Q. You haven't asked him? 17 A. I'm not interested. 18 Q. That's not my question. You haven't asked him? 19 A. I have not asked him, no. 20 Q. Now, in your deposition, did I represent to you 21 who Renee (redacted) was? 22 A. Yes, you did. 23 Q. Who did I tell you she was? 24 A. She was involved in the telephone harassment 25 scam. 56
1 Q. Against whom? 2 A. I believe against Mike (redacted), Teresa (redacted) 3 and some other party in Massachusetts. 4 Q. Okay. And these people being Teresa's family? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. Okay. So despite the fact that you never heard 7 that name before, that I told you who that person was in your 8 deposition, you have not asked your husband about it? 9 A. I did not, because it's my firm belief it's 10 more of Teresa's, you know, everybody's-out-to-get-me theory, 11 and I'm really not interested in hearing any more because you 12 can only take so much after a while. 13 Q. Okay. So you're not interested in finding out 14 if your husband knows Renee (redacted)? Just a simple question 15 maybe over a cup of coffee, "Hey, do you know who Renee (redacted) 16 is?" 17 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Judge, she's answered the 18 question. 19 THE COURT: She's answering okay. Overruled. 20 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Okay. 21 BY MR. DUCOTE: 22 Q. Didn't even ask the question over coffee? 23 A. It's my belief that it's more of, "Everybody's 24 out to get me." 25 Q. Well -- |
57
1 THE COURT: Let her answer. Just because she 2 doesn't answer exactly the way you want, that doesn't mean 3 that isn't the right way. 4 MR. DUCOTE: It's a yes or no -- 5 THE COURT: She can answer the question as long 6 as she answers the question. I'm going to sustain the 7 objection. Go ahead, ma'am. 8 A. I didn't get into a discussion with him about 9 who Renee (redacted) was. I really wasn't interested. It was my 10 belief that it was more of Teresa's being persecuted. 11 Q. I'll ask you again, ma'am. Real simple 12 question, if you'll just listen. Have you ever asked the 13 question to your husband, "Do you know Renee (redacted)?" 14 A. No. 15 Q. Have you asked him, "Do you know anything about 16 Renee (redacted)?" 17 A. No. 18 Q. Okay. 19 MR. DUCOTE: I don't have any other questions. 20 THE COURT: Thank you, ma'am. You may step 21 down. Thank you very much. 22 THE COURT: Next witness. 23 MR. DUCOTE: Mike (redacted). 24 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Can I have just a moment, 25 your Honor? 58 1 THE COURT: Yeah. 2 MR. MASTRUSERIO: I just want to tell (Kelly redacted) she 3 can go on home. We're not going to call her any more today. 4 (Counsel spoke off the record.) 5 THE COURT: Let me give you my two cents. I 6 don't want to be calling a whole lot of people out of order 7 in this case, calling four or five in your case -- I don't 8 want to do that. It's hard enough to follow the -- 9 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Let me see if the (redacted) 10 would be available some other time. 11 THE COURT: I don't care if it's one or two and 12 you'll accommodate somebody. But just to call them -- 13 MR. MASTRUSERIO: I'll find out her schedule, 14 your Honor. 15 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. 16 MR. MASTRUSERIO: She'll come back on Thursday, 17 your Honor. 18 THE COURT: Thank you. 19 Michael (redacted) 20 the witness herein, after having been first duly sworn and 21 cautioned, was examined and testified as follows: 22 THE COURT: Would you give us your full name, 23 please, spell your last name, and give us your address. 24 THE WITNESS: Michael (redacted). Last name 25 is spelled (redacted). I live at (redacted) 59
1 (redacted), spelled (redacted), California, (redacted). 2 DIRECT-EXAMINATION 3 BY MR. DUCOTE: 4 Q. Mr. (redacted), what do you do for a living? 5 A. I'm in the paper business. 6 Q. And what do you mean by that? 7 A. Well, I sell paper to printers for magazines, 8 brochures, flyers, labels. 9 Q. And you're related to Teresa? 10 A. I'm her brother. 11 Q. Okay. Now, I assume that you have telephones 12 that are assigned to your home? 13 A. Yes, I do. 14 Q. Okay. And what -- how many different telephone 15 numbers are there assigned to your home? 16 A. My home phone number? I have a home phone 17 number, of course. I have a fax line that comes into the 18 home that's one digit off of that. And I have a toll-free 19 number that hones to my home phone number. 20 Q. Now, was there ever a period of time where the 21 activity on your home telephone numbers changed in any way? 22 A. The activity? Oh, definitely. I was receiving 23 countless harassing phone calls. 24 Q. Okay. And when you say "countless", can you 25 estimate the number? 60
1 A. Several hundred. 2 Q. Okay. And what time of the day were the 3 harassing phone calls? 4 A. Many of them would come in the early morning. 5 Three, four, 5:00 in the morning, 6:00 in the morning, 7:00 6 rarely. It was almost always very early in the morning. 7 Never in the evening. Never on the weekends. Almost always 8 east coast business hours. 9 Q. Now when did that begin? 10 A. Well, I noticed it beginning right around 11 August of 1999, and it got more and more frequent as time 12 went by. 13 Q. Now, was there anything happening in Teresa's 14 life in August of 1999? 15 THE COURT: What was the question? 16 MR. DUCOTE: Was anything happening in Teresa's 17 life in August of 1999. 18 A. Yes, sir. In August of 1999 is when Teresa 19 took (redacted) to Children's Hospital. I think it was for a 20 possible sexual abuse examination. 21 Q. Okay. Now, did those harassing phone calls, as 22 you described them, ever stop? 23 A. They did stop for the most part, I have to say. 24 There intermittently would be some every once in a while 25 related to some event, but the campaign, as I would call it, 61
1 stopped right after Dr. (redacted)'s deposition in a separate 2 legal matter. 3 Q. (redacted) 4 A. (redacted) 5 (redacted), and we were taking his 6 deposition on November 30th, 2000. And right after his 7 deposition, he was asked whether he has been doing this or if 8 he had anyone else doing this. He -- 9 Q. Doing what? 10 A. Telephone harassing myself and my family. 11 Q. Okay. And what happened after the deposition? 12 A. Well, the phone calls stopped. 13 Q. Okay. Now, have you gone back and examined the 14 frequency of the telephone calls as they relate to events in 15 the course of this particular litigation? 16 A. Um-hum. 17 Q. You have to answer more -- 18 A. Yeah. Well, here's the thing. 19 THE COURT: That's all. It doesn't need an 20 explanation. You answered the question. 21 BY MR. DUCOTE: 22 Q. What has been the result of your examination of 23 the frequency of those calls? 24 A. Well, my examination of the frequency -- I only 25 have a partial snapshot of the campaign. My toll-free number 62
1 was being used, I believe, by Dr. (redacted) and -- 2 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Be an objection, motion to 3 strike. Without basis, your Honor. 4 THE COURT. Sustained. 5 A. Okay. 6 Q. Just talk about frequency, and we'll get to the 7 rest. 8 A. Okay. The frequency? 9 Q. And -- 10 A. I have the toll-free records. I was able take 11 a look at those just recently a month or so ago, and saw a 12 pattern where my toll free number was being used to harass 13 me. 14 Q. Was there any correlation or relationship 15 between the number of those calls and events in the case? 16 A. Oh, sure. A high percentage of the calls -- 17 THE COURT: Hold on. He doesn't want to 18 object, but how would he know the actions at that particular 19 time in this case? 20 MR. DUCOTE: We -- well, the actions in this 21 case are a matter of record. 22 THE COURT: How could he know? He lives in 23 California. How would he know the actions in this case? 24 MR. DUCOTE: Well, the actions of the case can 25 be established independently. 63
1 THE COURT: How could he know the actions in 2 the case to relate them to the phone calls? How would he 3 know that? 4 MR. DUCOTE: I -- 5 THE COURT: Unless he was here in Cincinnati 6 and sat in the trials, was familiar with the filings and 7 that, how would he know? 8 MR. DUCOTE: Let me lay a foundation. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 BY MR. DUCOTE: 11 Q. Have you reviewed the records of when 12 depositions were taken in this case, when court hearings were 13 taken in this case, when hearings were held in this case, et 14 cetera? 15 A. Absolutely. 16 Q. Okay. And is there any relation -- correlation 17 or is there any association between the happenings in this 18 case and when these phone calls would come? 19 A. Absolutely. 20 Q. And what is that? 21 A. During the period of time where Dr. Borack was 22 investigating the abuse allegations, probably about -- 23 THE COURT: When was that time? 24 THE WITNESS: That was January -- January 2000 25 to April of 2000. That four-month window, about a third of 64
1 the phone calls occurred out of a five-year period that I 2 have toll-free records. 3 BY MR. DUCOTE: 4 Q. Okay. And any other association with the 5 timing of the events in the case and the phone calls? 6 A. Sure. Can I refer to my notes or not? 7 Q. If you need to. If you need to refresh your 8 memory. 9 A. I can go right down the list I've got. Now, 10 mind you, I have toll-free records, but I believe most of the 11 phone calls, the -- 12 MR. MASTRUSERIO: There's no question posed to 13 the witness, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Sustained. 15 A. Okay. All right. The day before the January 16 6th, 2000 hearing here in this courtroom, I received a 17 harassing phone call from Boston (redacted) out of Minnesota. 18 THE COURT: Okay. First of all, I think at 19 this point that Mr. Mastruserio has a right to look at the 20 documents that he's testifying from. 21 THE WITNESS: I have a copy for him. 22 MR. DUCOTE: Okay. 23 THE WITNESS: And for you. 24 MR. DUCOTE: Okay. 25 THE WITNESS: And if the Judge would like a 65
1 copy, he can have one too. Would you like a copy? 2 THE COURT: No, thank you. 3 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Your Honor, I guess the only 4 problem I've got is that unless there's some tie that they 5 can establish that my client made these calls, as they're 6 attempting to establish, we have no way of knowing what this 7 call record is or how it will be relevant to this case. This 8 seems to be a totally independent problem that Mr. (redacted) 9 seems to be having in California, so I would think that this 10 whole line of questioning at this juncture so far is not 11 relevant. 12 THE COURT: Well, I don't know if it's relevant 13 or not, but I think you can have an opportunity to voir dire 14 him, if you want to do that. But I don't know. 15 MR. MASTRUSERIO: I would briefly like to. 16 THE COURT: The question isn't -- I don't know 17 that the question is not relevant. 18 MR. MASTRUSERIO: I would like to do that 19 briefly, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: Okay. Why don't we take five 21 minutes, give you a chance to look at that. Then you can 22 voir dire him. Thank you. You may step down, if you're more 23 comfortable, for five minutes. Or can you stay there. 24 THE WITNESS: I'm fine right here. 25 THE COURT: Okay. 66
1 (Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.) 2 THE COURT: Thank you. Okay. 3 MR. MASTRUSERIO: If I may voir dire the 4 witness, your Honor, for relevancy issues? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 VOIR DIRE 7 BY MR. MASTRUSERIO: 8 Q. Mr. (redacted), these phone calls that you are 9 talking about are between -- none of these calls apparently 10 are from Ohio; is that correct? 11 A. These phone calls are from Boston (redacted) 12 areas, locations. The Boston area and Boston (redacted) 13 locations. 14 Q. That would not be Ohio? 15 A. That's not Ohio. 16 Q. Okay. And you said you had numerous phone 17 calls? 18 A. Oh, yeah. Thousands. Really hundreds for me, 19 thousands for my family. 20 Q. Now, you're involved in a lawsuit? 21 A. Yes, I filed a lawsuit. 22 Q. Against this individual in -- is it Boston -- 23 A. In Boston, Massachusetts. 24 Q. Is it currently pending in court? 25 A. Yes, it is. 67
1 Q. And have you taken the deposition of Renee 2 (redacted)?
3 A. Yes, I have. 4 Q. And do you have a copy of that deposition with 5 you? 6 A. I do. 7 Q. May I see it, please? 8 A. Yes, you may. It's in my briefcase in the 9 other room. May I get it? 10 Q. Yes. 11 (The witness retrieved briefcase.) 12 MR. MASTRUSERIO: May I approach the witness, 13 your Honor? 14 THE COURT: Yes, please. 15 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Thank you. 16 BY MR. MASTRUSERIO: 17 Q. Now, have you ever contacted or hired a private 18 investigator by the name of Ron Smith? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. He's in Northern Kentucky? 21 A. Northern Kentucky Investigative Service. 22 Q. Okay. And do you know an individual by the 23 name of Scott (redacted) (spelled phonetically)? 24 A. Do I know Scott (redacted)? I know who he is. 25 Q. Who is Scott (redacted)? 68
1 A. Scott (redacted) is one of Renee (redacted)'s best 2 friends. Went to high school with him. 3 Q. And are you aware that Ron Smith and/or one of 4 his associates had contacted Dr. (redacted) and left a 5 message for Dr. (redacted) to call him? 6 A. No, no. They never left a message for Dr. 7 (redacted) at all. 8 Q. Maybe I got it in reverse. Are you aware 9 through this other trial in regards to Renee (redacted) that 10 someone holding himself out to be someone by the name of Joe 11 (redacted) (spelled phonetically) contacted Scott (redacted) and 12 told Mr. (redacted) that he owed -- trying find out information 13 about owing money to Dr. (redacted)? 14 A. That's a false statement. 15 Q. Okay. Did I say it wrong? 16 A. You said it wrong. That was not the premise. 17 Q. What was the premise that you know of? 18 A. The premise, as it was told to me by Ron Smith 19 and Rob Dixon, the premise was simply a phone call to Joe 20 (redacted) asking him whether he knew Scott (redacted), which 21 (redacted) said that he did and, as it so happened, was planning 22 on speaking to Mr. (redacted) later that day. 23 The private investigator asked Mr. (redacted) whether he 24 could have Scott (redacted)'s phone number. He was told no. 25 The private investigator said, "Well, can you give him my 69
1 pager number or phone number and have him call me?" Mr. 2 (redacted) said, "I would be glad to do that. No problem." And 3 the private investigator simply said, "Mr. (redacted)'s simply 4 a witness in a business case." 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. And then at the very end, he simply said, "By 7 the way, do you happen to know (redacted)?" To which 8 Mr. (redacted) responded, "That name sounds familiar, but no, I 9 don't." 10 Q. All right. 11 A. So there was no mention, sir, of anyone owing 12 anyone medical bills. 13 Q. All right. Now, at the time that this initial 14 phone call was made, had you already hired these two private 15 investigators? 16 A. Had I? 17 Q. Yeah. 18 A. Yes, sure. 19 Q. What was the purpose of you hiring these 20 private investigators? 21 A. To find out who was behind the harassing phone 22 calls, the source. 23 Q. Okay. And why would you hire someone in the 24 Cincinnati area if the phone calls were coming out of the 25 Boston area? 70
1 A. Because I suspected your client, 2 (redacted), of being behind it. 3 Q. Okay. Are you aware, sir, that a phone number 4 was left to call -- by the way -- strike that. Two gentleman 5 sitting outside, are these the two investigators that you 6 hired? 7 A. I haven't seen who's out there. When I was out 8 there, there was nobody out there except the pediatrician. 9 Q. Do you know if they're going to be here today 10 to testify? 11 A. I know that they're coming. I don't know if 12 they're coming today. 13 Q. Okay. Now, are you aware that a phone call was 14 made by myself to this particular number in Northern Kentucky 15 to try and ascertain what the purpose of this individual's 16 call was with Dr. (redacted)? 17 A. You made my day. I definitely remember that. 18 Q. Okay. I made your day? 19 THE COURT: What does that mean? 20 A. I was thrilled with that because -- 21 THE COURT: What? Thrilled about it? 22 A. Here's the reason for that. We simply asked 23 Mr. (redacted) whether he knew (redacted). That was -- 24 that was just a simple question. 24 hours later, his 25 lawyer's contacting the pager. There was a connection, 71
1 obviously, very quickly made between Dr. (redacted), Scott 2 (redacted) and Renee (redacted). They all knew one another. 3 Q. Were you aware that Scott (redacted) had called 4 Dr. (redacted) because of a conversation that someone called, 5 being placed to him indicating to him that he owed money to 6 Dr. (redacted)? 7 A. No one ever said that Mr. (redacted) owed money 8 to Dr. (redacted). 9 Q. Sir, were you behind this scam to set up a trap 10 to try and get Dr. (redacted) to call a number so that you 11 could try and bring him into this alleged case that you had 12 going on with Renee (redacted)? 13 A. That -- the pager trap idea was not mine. That 14 was the private investigate's idea. I didn't even know they 15 were doing it at the time. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. But we did want to make a connection between 18 Dr. (redacted) and Renee (redacted). 73
1 A. (redacted) 2 Q. (redacted) 3 (redacted) 4 (redacted)? 5 A. (redacted) 6 Q. Did any of these phone calls -- did you ever 7 track any of these phone calls to (redacted)'s phone 8 number? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Okay. 11 MR. MASTRUSERIO: No further questions, your 12 Honor. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION 15 BY MR. DUCOTE: 16 Q. So what is the connection between 17 (redacted) and Renee (redacted)?
18 A. The connection to (redacted) and Renee 19 (redacted) is that they're both -- well, he's a laparoscopic 20 surgeon. She works for Boston (redacted) with a laparoscopic 21 medical device company. I tracked a phone call from her home 22 to my home at 3:13 in the morning in October of 2000. She's 23 best friends with Scott (redacted) and Lynn (redacted), both of 24 whom she went to high school with. Evidently, Dr. (redacted) 25 is friends as well -- 74
1 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Be an objection to 2 "evidently". 3 THE COURT: Sustained. 4 MR. DUCOTE: Your Honor, they went into all 5 this. 6 THE COURT: "Evidently". Just objecting to 7 sustaining the word "evidently". 8 MR. MASTRUSERIO: One other thing. We've been 9 able -- 10 THE COURT: Hold on a minute, please. I just 11 want you to know what I'm sustaining; his word "evidently", 12 not the general conversation he's having with him. 13 BY MR. DUCOTE: 14 Q. So the conversation between (redacted) 15 and Scott (redacted). 16 A. Well, (redacted) actually assumed Scott's 17 (redacted)'s identity with a private investigator. 18 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Objection, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: What's your objection? 20 MR. MASTRUSERIO: There's no basis for him to 21 be able to testify to this. There's no underlying foundation 22 for the line of questions. And quite frankly, I've just -- 23 we been looking. We've been trying to find something in the 24 depo where there was any connection between (redacted) and this case 25 with Renee (redacted), and we're seeing in the depo she doesn't 75
1 even know who the people are, either me or (redacted). 2 THE COURT: Temporarily, I'm going to overrule 3 your objection. 4 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Okay. 5 BY MR. DUCOTE: 6 Q. Okay. So the question is the connection 7 between Scott (redacted) and (redacted). 8 A. Well, Mr. (redacted) and Mr. (redacted) had 9 conversations with one another. The conversation's the same 10 thing. 11 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Same objection, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: Sustained. How does he know that, 13 counselor? 14 MR. DUCOTE: Well, again, they went into all of 15 this. 16 BY MR. DUCOTE: 17 Q. How do you know? 18 A. That they had conversations? It's in his 19 deposition in this case. Right here, July 30th, 2001. He 20 goes on and on -- I mean, a quarter of his deposition has to 21 do with telephone harassment and the (redacted)'s and Renee 22 (redacted). One quarter, if you add up the pages. 23 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Just for the record, your 24 Honor, those are questions that were asked by Mr. Ducote, not 25 by my client. 76
1 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. 2 MR. DUCOTE: For the record, your Honor, we can 3 find that. And perhaps counsel would stipulate to this. Two 4 years ago, I had filed a motion to take Mr. Mastruserio's 5 deposition regarding the telephone call that he made to the 6 private investigator upon a message being left for Scott 7 (redacted). At that time, Mr. Mastruserio -- 8 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Be an objection, your Honor. 9 That's not a question. 10 THE COURT: That's all right. Overruled. Go 11 ahead. I want to hear him. 12 MR. DUCOTE: We have this transcript because 13 this was in the record before Magistrate Theile. Mr. 14 Mastruserio objected to the deposition and in open court said 15 that he did, in fact, make a phone call in response to an 16 inquiry from his client saying, "Call these people and find 17 out why they're calling me." So that -- 18 MR. MASTRUSERIO: That part is true. 19 THE COURT: Could I ask you a question? What's 20 all this got to do with what we're trying here today? 21 MR. DUCOTE: Well -- 22 THE COURT: It's very interesting, but what's 23 this got to do with -- 24 MR. DUCOTE: The fact that Dr. (redacted) has 25 been involved, his response to this case, to go on a campaign 77
1 of making harassing phone calls. 2 THE COURT: To this gentleman here? 3 MR. DUCOTE: To this gentleman and to Teresa's 4 family. It's very relevant because that's all part of his 5 conduct and his character. Also, the Court would recall that 6 his wife testified that she didn't ask him about this because 7 she believes this is all a fantasy on Teresa's part. 8 THE COURT: Oh, this Renee (redacted), you mean?
9 MR. DUCOTE: Renee (redacted), the phone calls, the 10 harassing phone calls. This is all part of why they tell 11 this child that her behavior's crazy. So Dr. (redacted)'s 12 defense of this evidence that he's been involved in these 13 phone calls is to tell his kids that his wife is crazy and 14 this is all part of the whole thing which goes to their 15 response to everything about the evidence of the abuse. 16 MR. MASTRUSERIO: He never said that. And he's 17 really clouding the record with his comments. 18 MR. DUCOTE: It's argumentative at this point, 19 but it's because the Court inquired what the relevance of all 20 this was. 21 THE COURT: Well -- 22 MR. DUCOTE: And again, your Honor, it's very 23 telling that his wife, in response to all of this, didn't 24 even know about the name Renee (redacted) until we took her 25 deposition a couple weeks ago, and then doesn't ask her 78
1 husband about it. So the credibility of thinking that they 2 say about their communication vis-a-vis the kids and 3 everything is, I think, highly suspect. 4 THE COURT: Well, I'm not interested in trying 5 a harassment case and everything like that. 6 MR. DUCOTE: That's not my point. 7 THE COURT: I mean, I want to get down to 8 what's happening in the kids' lives and that. That's what 9 I'm concerned about. I don't care about any harassment suit 10 and everything like that. That's not before me. 11 MR. DUCOTE: I understand that. 12 THE COURT: Another forum will handle that 13 probably, okay? So I don't want to waste days on this, 14 counselor, okay? That's what I'm trying to tell you. Go 15 ahead. 16 MR. DUCOTE: Okay. 17 BY MR. DUCOTE: 18 Q. So, in connection with the case that you have 19 against Renee (redacted) -- 20 A. Um-hum. 21 Q. -- in Massachusetts, has there been any 22 affidavit filed by (redacted) denying his relationship 23 with Renee (redacted)? 24 A. No, there has been no affidavit filed by 25 (redacted). 79
1 Q. Okay. Do you know how it was that Mr. 2 Mastruserio knew to ask him about the deposition that was 3 taken up in Massachusetts? 4 A. I don't know how he would know that. 5 Q. Okay. Now, I'm going to show you what's been 6 marked -- and I don't know if, your Honor, if you admitted 7 this. 8 THE COURT: Not yet. For identification. 9 MR. DUCOTE: Again, I would offer it, your 10 Honor. I think the foundation has been established, 11 relevance and everything. 12 THE COURT: Still for identification. 13 BY MR. DUCOTE: 14 Q. Defendant's Exhibit 1. Ask you if you've seen 15 that book before. 16 A. Yes, I have seen that book.
17 Q. Okay. In fact, when did you first see that 18 book? 19 A. I saw that book -- the cover of that book this 20 past August, 2003. 21 Q. Where did you see the cover of the book? 22 A. In California. (redacted), California. 23 Q. How is it you came to see this? 24 A. I was chatting with (redacted), and (redacted) told 25 me that his stepmother was reading him a book. 80
1 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Be an objection to what 2 (redacted) said. 3 THE COURT: Sustained. 4 MR. DUCOTE: Again, your Honor, she's already 5 admitted having the book, involving (redacted) with the book. 6 Second of all, at this point it's only being offered to show 7 how it is that he came to find the book, so for that limited 8 purpose. 9 THE COURT: Overruled. I mean, sustain the 10 objection. 11 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Thank you. 12 BY MR. DUCOTE: 13 Q. All right. Well, where did you first learn or 14 from whom did you first learn the title of the book? Where 15 did you first -- from whose mouth did you hear about such a 16 book? 17 A. (redacted). 18 Q. Okay. Now, have you ever heard the term "witch 19 mother"? 20 A. No. Well I've heard it now. Are you talking 21 about prior to this book? 22 Q. No, no. 23 A. Oh. 24 Q. Prior to today. 25 A. Prior to today? 81
1 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Questions been asked and 2 answered. He said no. 3 THE COURT: Well, he was clarifying it. 4 Overruled. 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Where did you hear the term "witch mother"? 9 A. From that book. 10 Q. Okay. How about "the hermit mother"? 11 A. From that book. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. "Waif" and "queen". 14 Q. Okay. 15 Q. Did you have a discussion with (redacted) 16 (redacted) about the book? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. And what was (redacted)'s state of mind? 19 Or can you describe his emotional state when he was telling 20 you about this book? 21 A. He got very nervous. He was -- he became 22 fearful halfway through telling me about this because he -- 23 well, he feared ramifications for telling. 24 Q. Okay. And what did he tell you about his 25 fears? 82
1 A. What did he tell me about his fears? 2 Q. Yeah. 3 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Be an objection, your Honor, 4 for the record. 5 MR. DUCOTE: Goes to his state of mind. That's 6 an exception -- 7 THE WITNESS: He -- 8 THE COURT: Hold on. Wait a minute. Just a 9 minute. 10 MR. MASTRUSERIO: I think it's being offered 11 for the truth of the matter, your Honor, and I think that 12 clearly falls into the hearsay. 13 MR. DUCOTE: Fear is an exception -- hearsay 14 exception. State of mind. 15 THE COURT: Overrule the objection. Go ahead. 16 A. (redacted) said that he had promised his father 17 and his stepmother that he would not tell that they were 18 reading this book to him. And disclosing it to me would all 19 of a sudden cause him tremendous anxiety, and he was -- he 20 would say, "You're going to use it. You're going to use it," 21 and he wanted to shut down. He didn't want to discuss it 22 anymore. 23 Q. Can you describe your relationship with 24 (redacted)? 25 A. I've got a very good relationship, very close. 83
1 I'm his godfather. (redacted) is one month younger than my 2 second son. They're close. You know, I love (redacted). He's 3 -- I would do anything for him. 4 Q. When you had this discussion with (redacted) in 5 August of 2003, prior to that time, had you ever heard 6 (redacted) use the term "borderline personality"? 7 A. No. 8 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Judge, there will be an 9 objection. He's leading the witness. 10 THE COURT: Sustained. 11 MR. DUCOTE: I'll rephrase the question. 12 BY MR. DUCOTE: 13 Q. Have you ever heard (redacted) ever discuss any 14 kind of psychiatric terms, personality disorders? 15 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Same objection, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Sustained. 17 BY MR. DUCOTE: 18 Q. When was the first time you heard (redacted), if 19 ever, use any psychological or psychiatric diagnosis terms? 20 A. That was the first time, August of 2003. 21 Q. Okay. Now, how difficult was it, based on your 22 conversation with (redacted), to actually find this book? 23 A. Oh, it was very easy. He remembered the title 24 almost perfectly. I went to -- when we got home -- he told 25 me at a horse stable about this. We were sitting on a bench 84
1 and he told me what his stepmother was doing. I was, like, 2 all right. So I committed that to memory, went back home, 3 went to the Internet, went to Amazon.com, typed in the words 4 that he had said, and up popped this book. 5 Q. When did you last see (redacted)? 6 A. Yesterday. 7 Q. Okay. And what did you do with (redacted)? 8 A. Oh, I just saw him for a couple of hours when 9 we went to Skyline Chili. You know, drove around, went to 10 Sycamore High School. The school was closed. Just palled 11 around, went back to the house. Only saw him for about two 12 or three hours. 13 Q. Did he express any fears to you? 14 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Be an objection. 15 THE COURT: Any what? 16 MR. DUCOTE: Fears. 17 THE COURT: Fears? 18 MR. DUCOTE: Fears. 19 THE COURT: Sustained. 20 BY MR. DUCOTE: 21 Q. What has been -- let me back up. At what age 22 did you and Teresa begin living in different residences? 23 A. I moved out of the house when I was 19, and 24 that would have been 1975. 25 Q. And Teresa was how old then? 85
1 A. Teresa is six years younger than me so she 2 would have been 13. 3 Q. And what's been your relationship with Teresa 4 since that time? 5 A. Very good relationship. She's my baby sister. 6 It's a typical big brother/little sister relationship. 7 Q. And how often have you been in contact or 8 contact with her, been around her? 9 A. Oh, well, you know, since I moved to California 10 about 20 years ago, I don't see any of the family nearly as 11 much, although a little bit more of Teresa because she 12 occasionally flies out to San Francisco. So I'll see her. 13 But I talk frequently with the family. 14 Q. Okay. And how often have you seen her with the 15 kids? 16 A. With the kids? 17 Q. Yeah. 18 A. Oh, many, many times. 19 Q. Can you describe her relationship with her 20 kids? 21 A. Oh, she's excellent. Excellent mother. 22 Q. Do you have any kids? 23 A. I do. I have three kids. 24 Q. How old are they? 25 A. They are 13, 11, and 8. 86
1 Q. And how long have you been married? 2 A. I've been married almost 15 years. 3 Q. Have you ever observed anything in Teresa that 4 caused you concern that she had any mental health problems? 5 A. Absolutely not. 6 Q. Have you ever seen any conduct with Teresa 7 involving any sort of -- to disparage their father? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Have you ever seen any conduct on Teresa's part 10 or heard from her or the kids any conduct on her part that 11 she was fabricating allegations against Dr. (redacted)? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did you have any personal involvement in the 14 various investigations of the concern about the abuse of the 15 kids? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Were you ever interviewed by anybody involved 18 in the investigation? 19 A. Never, never. 20 Q. What is the earliest point, to your knowledge, 21 that Dr. (redacted) heard the name from either Teresa or from 22 you or from me, the name Renee (redacted), in connection with these 23 phone calls? 24 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Be an objection. 25 THE COURT: Sustained. 87
1 A. When did -- 2 THE COURT: Sustained. 3 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. 4 BY MR. DUCOTE: 5 Q. Now, in your litigation in Massachusetts, have 6 you attempted to obtain all of Renee (redacted)'s e-mails from 7 Boston (redacted)? 8 A. Yes, I've attempted that. 9 Q. When did that attempt begin? 10 A. Two years ago. 11 Q. And has that ever been successful? 12 A. Two weeks ago, a Boston judge ordered Boston 13 (redacted) to turn over all of her e-mails dating back to 14 January of 1999. 15 Q. Okay. And when will that be produced? 16 A. Hopefully soon. 17 Q. And does Renee (redacted) still work for Boston 18 (redacted)? 19 A. No, she does not. 20 Q. And -- 21 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Judge, at this point I'm 22 going to again interject an objection. I've had an 23 opportunity to go through some of this deposition. And he 24 can correct me if I'm wrong, but this lady who is claiming 25 she's never had any contact with Dr. (redacted), doesn't know 88
1 him, the only time his name has ever come up is involving 2 this case that he's filed against her. They don't know me, 3 have had no contact with me. 4 MR. DUCOTE: If he has admissible evidence of 5 something, then he can offer it. But to get up and just 6 characterize -- this isn't even an objection. 7 MR. MASTRUSERIO: We're on page 90 of 137 of 8 the depo. 9 MR. DUCOTE: That's not an objection. 10 MR. MASTRUSERIO: I'm going to object on the 11 basis that none of this is relevant to a custody trial. 12 MR. DUCOTE: Well, and it's specifically in our 13 pleading that part of the course of Dr. (redacted)'s conduct 14 has been engaging in this campaign of all these harassing 15 phone calls of her family, and I don't mean to try it all, 16 but I did want to get evidence in the record of this. 17 THE COURT: Overruled at this point. Go ahead. 18 MR. DUCOTE: Okay. Would you read back the 19 last question? 20 (Whereupon the previously expounded question was read 21 back.) 22 MR. DUCOTE: Counsel approached and asked could 23 we just confer briefly. 24 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Just a second. 25 (Counsel spoke briefly off the record.) 89
1 MR. DUCOTE: Would you read back the last 2 question again? 3 (Whereupon, the previously expounded question was read 4 back.) 5 BY MR. DUCOTE: 6 Q. At what point did Renee (redacted) quit Boston 7 (redacted)? 8 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Objection. 9 THE COURT: Sustained. 10 MR. DUCOTE: I don't have any other questions. 11 THE COURT: Cross? 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION 13 BY MR. MASTRUSERIO: 14 Q. Yes. You -- in a question that counsel asked 15 you, have you ever been directly involved, I believe, in this 16 issue with your sister and her husband, I believe your answer 17 was no? 18 A. With any particular therapist, psychologist? 19 Is that the question? 20 Q. I think that was the question. 21 A. I've had no interaction with any therapist, any 22 psychologist related to this case. 23 Q. Have you been involved in any way in their 24 divorce case? 25 A. In any way? Yeah, of course. I've been, you 90
1 know, somebody that she has talked to frequently. I've 2 advised her. 3 Q. What else? How else have you gotten involved 4 in the divorce action and custody issues? 5 A. In the divorce action and custody issues, I've 6 been, I think, very much somebody who's been involved. For 7 instance, I was her go-between between Mr. Abernethy and her 8 for quite some time. 9 Q. What's your earliest involvement in this case, 10 sir? 11 A. The earliest involvement in the case? It's 12 hard to pinpoint. I've been involved, I think, almost from 13 the get-go. 14 Q. Right. 15 A. Almost. 16 Q. Okay. You live in California? 17 A. Right. 18 Q. And how often do you come back here to visit 19 with your family? 20 A. Oh, maybe once or twice a year. 21 Q. Once or twice a year? And in 1997 -- 22 A. Um-hum. 23 Q. At the time that Teresa had filed her divorce 24 action, you forwarded money to Teresa and contacted Jim Simon 25 to do an investigation in June of that year, '97, correct? 91
1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. Matter of fact, you spent about $7,800 with Mr. 3 Simon to do surveillance of Dr. (redacted), correct? 4 A. I did pay -- well, I advanced Teresa money to 5 pay Simon, yes. I was involved with that, certainly. 6 Q. Now, you weren't here in Cincinnati involved. 7 You just sent the money ,right? 8 A. Exactly. 9 Q. And you authorized Dr. (redacted) being 10 videotaped, followed with a tape recorder? 11 A. I don't believe I authorized anything. However 12 Jim Simon or whatever their investigative people did, they 13 did. 14 Q. Were you aware that they were going to? 15 A. I've never seen any videotape. 16 Q. Of Dr. (redacted)? 17 A. Right. 18 Q. Okay. Were you aware that in the early part of 19 June 1997 that your sister was planning on using them to do a 20 audio tape of (redacted)? 21 A. No, I'm not aware of that. 22 THE COURT: Let me ask you something. I do it 23 with tongue in cheek. I hesitate to ask. Is Mr. Simon going 24 to be involved in this case? 25 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Yeah. I believe he's on the 92 1 witness list. 2 THE COURT: He's a close, personal friend of 3 mine. 4 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Okay. 5 THE COURT: So, you know, if he's going to be 6 involved in case, I don't think I ought to hear the case. 7 MR. MASTRUSERIO: They called him. 8 THE COURT: Well, Jimmy's a really good, 9 personal friend of mine. Jimmy and I are close. 10 MR. MASTRUSERIO: He's on their side, your 11 Honor, I would assume. 12 THE COURT: I know, but -- I don't know. I 13 don't know. I just -- I don't know to what extent he's going 14 to be involved or anything like that. 15 MR. MASTRUSERIO: I don't know either. I don't 16 see how it would be a conflict just because he might be a 17 friend of yours. 18 THE COURT: Well -- 19 MR. DUCOTE: Your Honor, could I proffer -- he 20 actually interviewed (redacted) about the abuse, very detailed 21 interviews, and was very significantly involved in that whole 22 investigation. 23 THE COURT: Well, I don't know. 24 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Shall I proceed with the 25 witness, your Honor? 94
1 Q. Now, you're familiar with the allegations that 2 have been made by your sister about sexual abuse and physical 3 abuse involving these children? 4 A. Yes, I'm aware of those allegations. 5 Q. All right. And you're aware of the number of 6 different people that she's made these allegations about? 7 A. Different people that she's made allegations 8 about? I think she's only made the allegations about Dr. 9 (redacted). 10 Q. You weren't aware of his brother and his 11 mother? 12 A. Oh, yes, yes, yes. Right. Absolutely. Yeah. 13 Q. Are you also aware that in her motion filed to 14 terminate the shared parenting plan she also accused (Kelly redacted) 15 of locking them in a closet and not feeding them? 16 A. I've never heard that before. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. That's the first I've heard that is from you. 19 Q. You do know who Jan Haskins is, do you not? 20 A. I believe you mean Jan Hankins. 21 Q. Hankins. I'm sorry. 22 A. Yeah, I do. 23 Q. And she's the lady that bore a child by (redacted) 24 back in the early 80's when he was in college? 25 A. Yeah, his college girlfriend. 95
1 Q. Right. And you've called her during the course 2 of this case, have you not? 3 A. Last time we spoke with Jan was February of 4 2000. 5 Q. You initially called her back in 19 -- late 6 90's? 7 A. '97, '98, somewhere in there, sure. 8 Q. What was the purpose of you calling her? 9 A. To find out more about the background of Dr. 10 (redacted). 11 Q. Okay. Did you also call her and give her 12 information regarding (redacted)'s income? 13 A. No, I did not. 14 Q. Did you encourage her to file an action to try 15 and seek support or increase support? 16 A. I told her that Dr. (redacted) had entered a 17 false motion to the court here stating that his income was 18 $80,000, when it was nearly double that. And she had 19 indicated that he was using the same $80,000 figure in 20 Louisiana, and she'd said that he was getting away with it in 21 Louisiana. I informed her that he was not in Ohio. 22 Q. So the purpose of your call was to encourage 23 her to try and seek more child support? 24 A. Oh, no. That wasn't the purpose of my call. 25 We were speaking about a number of issues. But I informed 96
1 her that she -- that Dr. (redacted) had admitted in Ohio that 2 he earned twice, after denying under oath many, many times, 3 that he earned more than $80,000. 80, 80, 80; that's all you 4 heard. It was all lie, lie, lie. 5 Q. Are you talking about the initial filing back 6 in 1997 on his affidavit? Is that what you're making 7 reference to? 8 A. No, I'm making reference -- you had entered a 9 motion asking for a change in support because of a change of 10 circumstances in which his salary went down from 120 to 80, 11 and then it took close to a year of trying to get to the 12 truth before Dr. (redacted) ever so reluctantly admitted that 13 it was nearly double that amount. 14 Q. When you make these comments, where do you get 15 the information from? 16 A. Oh, I read your motion. And, of course, I read 17 his deposition where he admits that he makes almost double 18 that. 19 Q. You want to show me in reference to what you're 20 talking about? 21 A. It's right in all the court transcripts here. 22 You've got a motion, sir. 23 THE COURT: Wait a minute. You're not to ask 24 him. He's asking you questions. 25 THE WITNESS: All right. 97
1 THE COURT: Just answer. 2 THE WITNESS: Go right ahead. 3 BY MR. MASTRUSERIO: 4 Q. You made the comment that you read my motion, 5 so you must have it or you've seen it. 6 A. Yeah. 7 Q. Do you have a copy of that with you? 8 A. No, I do not. 9 Q. All right. You've also made the statement that 10 you've read (redacted)' deposition, correct? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. So you had an opportunity to review the 13 document, and you know where he allegedly made these 14 statements about his income? 15 A. Um-hum. 16 Q. Okay. Were you also aware in the year that it 17 took to get -- from the time the motion was filed until the 18 case was ultimately discussed in front of the Magistrate that 19 his income had gone back up to its original level of 120? 20 Are you aware of that? 21 A. I believe actually Dr. (redacted)'s income 22 never really wavered. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. Because he moonlights as an emergency room 25 doctor. 98
1 Q. Do you have any financial records to support 2 your testimony today? 3 A. Well, I didn't bring them. Dr. (redacted) and 4 I in that particular suit exchanged financial information. 5 So I actually have his records. 6 Q. Now, have you heard your sister at any time in 7 the last seven years talk to Teresa (sic) or (redacted) about 8 physical abuse by their father? 9 A. No, I've never heard her speak about that. 10 Q. Never heard that? 11 A. No. 12 Q. What about sexual abuse? 13 A. Never. 14 Q. But you only get here, what, twice a year? 15 A. Hum? 16 Q. Only here twice a year? 17 A. Yeah. 18 Q. (redacted) 99
21 Q. Okay. Were you involved in sending any letter 22 -- an unsigned letter to Good Sam Hospital involving 23 (redacted) or to his employer? Were you involved in that? 24 A. No. What letter is that? 25 Q. I just asked if you were involved in sending 100
1 any letters of those two places. 2 A. No. 3 Q. You did send letters to the Ohio Attorney 4 General's office, though, haven't you? 5 A. I communicated with the Ohio Attorney General's 6 office. 7 Q. And you filed a complaint against Dr. Borack? 8 A. Did I file a complaint against Dr. Borack? 9 Q. Yeah. 10 A. No. My sister. 11 Q. You're not involved in complaint or lawsuit 12 involving Dr. Borack? 13 A. No. 14 Q. You did call the University of Cincinnati in 15 regards to Dr. Borack, though, didn't you? 16 A. Called? I have never called the University of 17 Cincinnati. 18 Q. Did you write them, e-mail them, or communicate 19 with them? 20 A. My sister was communicating with them. 21 Q. Well, I appreciate that. But did you 22 understand the question? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Did you ever write, communicate, e-mail, phone 25 call the University of Cincinnati in regards to Dr. Borack? 101
1 A. I asked Dr. Borack -- I asked the University of 2 Cincinnati for the Freedom of Information Act, and I did that 3 on my sister's behalf. 4 Q. Um-hum. And the purpose of that was to what? 5 A. We wanted to know Dr. Borack's references. 6 Q. Okay. And subsequent to you making this 7 request and demand for the information regarding Dr. Borack, 8 a complaint was filed against him, correct, by your sister? 9 A. A complaint? 10 Q. Yes. 11 A. After the University of Cincinnati? 12 Q. Or was it before the University of Cincinnati 13 question? 14 A. I think you've got this mixed up. 15 Q. Why don't you explain it to me so I get it 16 right. 17 A. I believe it was in March of 2001 when a 18 complaint was filed with the Ohio State Psychology Board 19 against Dr. Borack. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. That was when that complaint was. Dr. Borack, 22 I believe, didn't become involved with the University of 23 Cincinnati until the year 2002, possibly 2003, and there were 24 certain records that the university had which were very 25 politely asked for. 103
17 Q. Okay. Now, were you the person that contacted 18 the private investigators in this case early on, or was it 19 your sister? Who hired them? 20 A. Jim Simon? 21 Q. Yeah. 22 A. I'm not sure if Teresa spoke to them first or 23 whether I had. 24 Q. Do you have any particular documentation as to 25 at what point in time you contacted them? 104
1 A. No. 2 Q. Do you have any contact -- put it this way. 3 How far before the date when you actually sent money to them 4 to hire them had you had contact with them? Let's put it 5 that way. 6 A. Oh, I couldn't recall that. That's 1997. I 7 believe I spoke with Jim Simon back in May or June of 1997. 8 When they were sent money, I don't know. 9 Q. Can we agree that you spoke with them or you 10 had contact with them prior to retaining them? Can we agree 11 to that? 12 A. I would typically speak to someone before 13 retaining them, yes. 14 Q. And your recollection is that it was possibly a 15 few weeks to a month before you actually sent the money to 16 them? 17 A. I wouldn't -- I can't tell you if it was a few 18 weeks or a month or whatever. I can't say. 19 Q. Did you also involve a Karen Winner in this 20 particular case on behalf of your sister? 21 A. Yes, I did. 22 Q. And did you ask her to come to Cincinnati and 23 interview the court personnel and interview Dr. Borack? 24 A. I did. 25 Q. Are you also involved in any of the 105
1 underground organizations in California regarding the removal 2 of children from one state to another? 3 A. No. 4 Q. What was the first time you discussed 5 Defendant's Exhibit Number 1 with (redacted)? 6 A. "Understanding the Borderline Mother"?
7 Q. Um-hum. 8 A. Discussed that with him in August of 2003. 9 Q. And have you discussed it with him more than 10 one occasion? 11 A. Yesterday. 12 Q. So that's the second time? 13 A. Second time. 14 Q. Okay. Now, have you heard any of your family 15 members in your presence, besides Teresa, make any 16 disparaging comments about their father? 17 MR. DUCOTE: Objection to the form of the 18 question. Assumes a fact not in evidence that Teresa has 19 done that. 20 THE COURT: Sustained. Sustained. 21 MR. MASTRUSERIO: I said besides Teresa. 22 MR. DUCOTE: Well, but he said have you heard. 23 THE COURT: Sustained the objection. 24 BY MR. MASTRUSERIO: 25 Q. Did you also contact Dr. Boat and Dr. Olafson 106
1 in this case? 2 A. I've never spoken to Dr. Boat or Dr. Olafson. 3 Q. Did you write to them? 4 A. I've never written them. 5 Q. Have you looked at any of the pleadings in this 6 case? 7 A. The various motions, things of that sort? 8 Q. Things that were filed. 9 A. I would say most of it I have. 10 Q. And were you aware that there was a shared 11 parenting initially filed in this case? 12 A. Are you talking about the initial shared 13 parenting? 14 Q. The initial shared parenting plan. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And you had an opportunity to read that? 17 A. Many years ago. 18 Q. Okay. And -- 19 THE COURT: I'm sorry. What was your answer? 20 THE WITNESS: Many years ago. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 BY MR. MASTRUSERIO: 23 Q. Did your sister share with you and show you the 24 amended shared parenting plan? 25 A. Yes. 107
1 Q. I believe you made the statement that you were 2 the go-between or person that assisted her with Bill 3 Abernethy? 4 A. Right. 5 Q. Okay. Did you -- were you the one that was -- 6 that hired Bill Abernethy? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Did you front any money for his employment? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Were you aware of when Teresa signed the 11 amended shared parenting plan? 12 A. When she did it? Yes. I was very much opposed 13 to that. 14 Q. And did you convey that to her before she 15 signed it? 16 A. Yes. Actually, I don't believe that -- she 17 signed it and she didn't. I believe Mr. Abernethy used his 18 power of attorney to enter it into the record. She did not 19 come back and sign it. 20 MR. MASTRUSERIO: If I may have just a second, 21 your Honor? 22 THE WITNESS: Do you want this back? 23 THE COURT: You can just leave it there. 24 They'll get it. 25 BY MR. MASTRUSERIO: 108
1 Q. If I understood you correctly, you've come here 2 at least twice a year and you've interacted with Teresa and 3 the children, (redacted) and (redacted), about twice a year? 4 A. Yes. Once or twice a year. 5 Q. Okay. And when you are here, is Teresa and her 6 family -- are you all together with the children? 7 A. Sure. 8 Q. That would be your mom, your dad -- 9 A. Right. 10 Q. You have a brother whose name is -- is it Bob? 11 A. Bob, right. 12 Q. And you have a sister? 13 A. Sister Kathy. 14 Q. Kathy (redacted), right? 15 A. Exactly. And her boys, Brad and Matt. 16 Q. And has Teresa been out to see you with the 17 children since September of 2000? 18 A. She -- well, yeah. This last August she was 19 out. 20 Q. Okay. Are you aware that the amended shared 21 parenting order for the six-month period of treatment that 22 was recommended -- 23 A. The deprogramming and the intervention? 24 Q. Let me finish the question. 25 A. Sure. 109
1 Q. -- does not permit contact with any of the 2 (redacted) family members? Are you aware of that? 3 A. I believe I read that. 4 Q. Okay. But you didn't follow that order? 5 A. We all had extensive contact with the children. 6 MR. MASTRUSERIO: No further questions, your 7 Honor. 8 THE COURT: Anything further? 9 MR. DUCOTE: Yeah. 10 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 11 BY MR. DUCOTE: 12 Q. What was Teresa's frame of mind, if you knew -- 13 or if you know, around the time of the whole issue of whether 14 or not that agreed amended shared parenting plan should be 15 implemented? 16 MR. MASTRUSERIO: I would like to impose an 17 objection, your Honor. 18 MR. DUCOTE: He opened the whole door to that. 19 THE COURT: Hold on. Hold on just a minute. 20 MR. MASTRUSERIO: That has been -- the Court 21 ruled on a 60(B). It was objected to. They took it to the 22 Court of Appeals. They weren't successful. They tried to 23 take it to the Supreme Court. They weren't successful. That 24 issue is totally res judicata about what her frame of mind is 25 in regards to her signing that agreed entry. 110
1 MR. DUCOTE: He opened the door to the whole 2 thing. 3 THE COURT: I'm going to sustain the objection. 4 BY MR. DUCOTE: 5 Q. Did you -- you said that you were opposed to 6 the agreed -- the amended shared parenting plan? 7 A. Sure. 8 Q. Did you convey that to Mr. Abernethy? 9 A. Oh, yeah. Definitely. 10 Q. And what did you convey to him? 11 A. I told him that it was nonsense. You don't 12 deprogram children. This is mind control. I likened it to 13 communist China what is going on here. I said, "You have no 14 proof that these children have been brainwashed." I was very 15 angry that they would proceed with a program such as that to 16 deprogram children. I was absolutely livid about it. 17 Q. And what did he tell you? What was his 18 response? 19 A. That you have no choice. That Dr. Borack had 20 come down with this parental alienation syndrome, was 21 labeling Teresa with that. 22 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Objection, your Honor. I 23 don't think he can make comments about what a doctor is 24 doing. 25 THE COURT: Hold on just a minute. It's a 111
1 couple steps removed. You want to know what Attorney 2 Abernethy said to him and what he said to Abernethy, and then 3 you want him to discuss what Dr. Borack's theory is and 4 everything like that? 5 MR. DUCOTE: He went into that, and I can -- 6 THE COURT: I think that's a little bit too 7 far, okay? 8 MR. DUCOTE: Okay. 9 BY MR. DUCOTE: 10 Q. What did Mr. Abernethy tell you about that 11 plan? 12 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Objection. 13 THE COURT: I really think that that's even 14 objectionable. What the attorney told him? 15 MR. DUCOTE: Yes. 16 THE COURT: No. I'm going to sustain the 17 objection. He explained himself, his position, and I think 18 that's sufficient. 19 BY MR. DUCOTE: 20 Q. Did you discuss with Teresa your conversations 21 with Mr. Abernethy? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Okay. And what did you tell Teresa? 24 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Be an objection, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: No, overruled. Go ahead. 112
1 A. Well -- okay. Teresa refused to speak with Mr. 2 Abernethy when he issued the second shared parenting 3 agreement. She felt she had been coerced. 4 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Objection as not responsive. 5 THE COURT: That's not responsive to your 6 question. Sustain the objection. 7 BY MR. DUCOTE: 8 Q. What did you tell -- 9 A. I told Teresa that Mr. Abernethy said that she 10 had no choice; that doctor -- that Judge Panioto would back 11 Dr. Borack entirely. And that you would -- if it went to 12 trial, you would lose the children. 13 MR. DUCOTE: I don't have any other questions. 14 THE COURT: Anything further? 15 RECROSS EXAMINATION 16 BY MR. MASTRUSERIO: 17 Q. (redacted) 18 A. (redacted) 19 Q. (redacted) 20 A. (redacted) 21 MR. MASTRUSERIO: No further questions. 22 THE COURT: Anything further of this witness? 23 MR. DUCOTE: No. 24 THE COURT: Thank you very much, sir. You may 25 step down. 113
1 THE WITNESS: Thank you. Is this then an 2 exhibit, or do I take it? 3 MR. DUCOTE: Yeah, that hasn't been marked. 4 THE COURT: Thank you. 5 (The witness was excused.) 6 MR. DUCOTE: Your Honor, can I just see who's 7 out there? 8 THE COURT: Well, no. I don't think there's 9 any sense in calling more witnesses. I really don't. I 10 mean, as I said, Jimmy's a really close friend of mine, and I 11 don't think I can hear this case. 12 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Judge, it doesn't involve the 13 parties. It's just the person -- 14 THE COURT: It involves me because, as I said, 15 he's very close, personal friend of mine and you know, I put 16 a lot of credence in maybe what he would say and not say, and 17 I don't think it's fair to either side for me to know who is 18 going to testify as a witness and be as close as I am to him. 19 We play golf together. We're just really close, and I don't 20 think that it would be fair and I think I would be remiss in 21 my duties if I continued to hear the case knowing he was 22 going to testify and be a witness in this case. Just the way 23 I feel. 24 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Let's put it a different way. 25 Is counsel going to call him? Because there was two 114
1 individuals involved in the same scenario, and I don't know 2 whether or not he's even going to do that. 3 THE COURT: I asked you before if you thought 4 he was going to be a witness, and you said yes. 5 MR. MASTRUSERIO: I said he was on the witness 6 sheet. 7 MR. DUCOTE: A crucial witness. 8 THE COURT: Please. 9 MR. DUCOTE: He's an important witness for us. 10 THE COURT: Well, so I think we'll have to 11 reroll it. 12 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Do what? 13 THE COURT: Reroll it. Send it to another 14 Judge. 15 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Would you note my objection 16 for the record, your Honor? 17 THE COURT: I'll do that, okay. We'll reroll 18 it today. Assign it to a different Judge to be heard. Thank 19 you very much. 20 MR. DUCOTE: Your Honor, as a practical matter, 21 does that mean that it's not going to go this week? 22 THE COURT: It means it's done right now. 23 MR. DUCOTE: I understand, but with another 24 Judge? 25 THE COURT: No, no. The other Judges won't -- 115
1 I don't think another Judge will be able to jump right in and 2 hear it today and go forward. 3 MR. DUCOTE: Thank you, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you very much. 5 MR. DUCOTE: Appreciate your candor in this, 6 your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Thank you. Want to return the 8 exhibits? 9 MR. DUCOTE: Yes. 10 THE COURT: I'm sorry. 11 MR. DUCOTE: I guess it'll be in the record 12 that the exhibits are returned? 13 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. Put on an entry 14 the exhibits are returned. And because of the Judge's 15 relationship to one of the, to quote you, important witnesses 16 in this case, he recused himself from the case and we'll 17 reroll it to another Judge. Thank you. 18 MR. MARTIN: Thank you. 19 (Whereupon, court adjourned.) |
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About The Mother